The time has arrived! I agree with the person that said why boycott this convention as it may turn out to be one of the most interesting in our lifetime. Take pictures, video and audio files of interesting items you may encounter.However, my gut feeling tells me that this legal action is of no benefit to the Apostolic Assembly as a whole.
1. This action could drag on until 2010 when the next election is to take place thus nullifying this filing.
2. If the plaintiffs win, it really hasn't changed the way the AA does business. There still is no oversight to the General Board, the same group of men that have been running the show for the past twenty years are trying to position themselves for the next twenty years, save Bro. Torres.
Which group of good 'ol boys do we want in office?, which really doesn't matter due the fact that I would venture to suggest that every election has been rigged since the inception of the Apostolic Assembly.
3. If the existing General Board wins, it is a legal mandate that they can continue business as usual. This without a doubt will lead organizational split because of (a.) those on the plaintiffs side will be excommunicated, maybe not formally but ministerially and socially and (b.) pride.
It is a very interesting situation we are experiencing. We need an oversight committee with truly independent, unbiased representatives that have no social, financial ties or political ladders to climb. All people with any previous position should not be on this committee. The General Board is responsible to this committee. It could be respected leaders from other business', educational and religious institutions and not AA members. Some may ask why do we need this? And I would be quick to remind you of the situation we are in. We need this more than ever! I don't care who is on the General Board, they need to be accountable for their actions to some one. And they are not choosing to be accountable to the constituency. That goes for the people on both sides of the lawsuit.
Thanks to those keeping track of the dates of the dates for the lawsuit. Keep us updated.
One more note, I thought it was interesting the plaintiffs noted in their lawsuit that they do not know if they have been financially impacted. It was left as a question mark. By the way, are the plaintiffs going to release who, if any one, has contributed to the their legal "defense" fund (by the way they are not on the defense which why I think their term is humorous, it should be something like: 2006 General Elections Fairness Legal Fund or Apostolic Assembly Legal Fund to Ensure Fair Elections) and how those funds have used.
I am also going to stop the comments under the AAFCJ Election Discussion Update Post. The election discussion can continue under this post.
Felicidades,
Apostolic Voice
Blogmaster
p.s.
I updated the Shout Out city list, we are up to 326 cities.
353 comments:
1 – 200 of 353 Newer› Newest»To the Blog Master, I was just going to suggest a new line to comment, due to the upcoming elections.
I am not a generational Apostolic, I came to the Lord at the age of 13, set aside to the ministry at the age of 18. I have always said, that the day the AA compromised the Doctrine I am outta here.
This is a trying situation, to say the least. I have been on the receiving end of a power hungry, vindictive, character defaming Bishop, who rules through fear and who is placing key family member and friends in ministerial positions.
I pray, at the very least, this will be a wake up call to those in power. As all previous comments have shared, we ARE tired of these actions and we will not take it anymore.
Blog the Convention!
Is anyone interested in blogging the convention and giving a daily update. I think it would be rather easy to attend meetings and report back on the general tone and atmosphere. I think one area of inteterest would be the Symposium. I would really like to review the content and the credentials of the speakers/presenters.
So, take your laptop and "blog the convention."
I agree that this lawsuit provides no immediate solutions, other than both "Good Ole'" boys clubs getting it on for $10K-a-month salary. Unless, the "dissenters" do something extraordinary like dissolve the power of the board and transfer property, ministerial credentialing, and financial accountability to the local church, then we'll get more of the same. There is absolutely no need for a strong General Board over a group of churches like the AA. The GB was made to perpetuate an elitist group of men that realized the potential for power and wealth through this conglomerate of churches. The AA leadership structure does nothing but prop up a select few, and ultimately their sons and relatives. It an embarrassment that half the majority of Bishops and General Board members are all related in one way or another.
The Board should be dissolved and the only elected position should be the President. He then in turn would appoint to all other positions (just like the U.S. executive). But with all the financial and ministerial accountability at the local level, the GB would then be beholding to the authority of the local pastor. All of the GB positions would rely on the “gaining” support and respect of the local pastor for any national initiatives to move forward. Furthermore, the elected Bishops would be the representatives (like the U.S. Congress) of the local church to the general board for whatever, minor accountability remains at that level.
The last critical piece is an open and transparent government. Oversight boards that monitor spending and quality management, and ethical practices should be established. Made up of tithe paying member of the local church, the groups would provide a non-binding oversight of AA affairs. Reporting annually, the groups would highlight their opinions on the matters under their oversight.
Just a few thoughts on AA politics this Sunday morning
I too have been at the receiving end of vindictive bishop, who walks around with his nose so high in the air I don't know how in the world he breaths.
Well I guess this week he also got served with papers about his part in the election fraud.
This from a man that writes books on serving God......Please!!!!!!!
No wonder the whole AA is in KYOS.
What wonderful leaders we have. Accuse you of slander and defamation, then turn around and commit fraud.
" All of the GB positions would rely on the “gaining” support and respect of the local pastor for any national initiatives to move forward."
Sounds fine but then the GB would have to kiss up to the Pastors. I already have a Pastor that doesn't do anything and is a tyrant. So if the GB has to kiss up to him for support, does that mean we're back at step one. Stuck with a lazy Pastor that doesn't like to work and just push his weight around while on his power trip.
To those of you going to Dallas, email us at Apostolic News. We would invite you to contribute your opinions of the services, functions and event at the convention.
apostolicvoice@gmail.com
You can blog right from your cell phone, live, as it is happening.
I heard that one of the ministers on the plaintiff's side say he and his entourage where going to see what was going to be said about him.
AV
Blogmaster
Does anyone know who is preaching at the convention? I heard Gaxolia will be preaching. WOW.. What is the AA coming to? Gaxolia????? (Take your pillow)
Now here is man that has it made. The church pays ALL his bills, even when he has to pay income taxes at the end of the year.
Yours truly,
The Insider
I wonder if he reports all his income to the IRS.
Gaxiola?? the one that is being sued for election fraud?
The one that was on the QC?
I heard and its only hearsay that he would sell false papers to illegals years back.
The Outsider
Everyone in her should check out this site:
jephthahstent.com
http://www.jephthahstent.com
Hmm, in esesence the petitioners are requesting a re-election, not bad- there needs to be one. . .
oh and by the way- #32---"It is uninown at this time whether the Plaintiffs have suffered any fianncial detriment or damages as the current financial status of Apostolic is unknown."
Translation: They want to be compensated for the pain of losing, however, they don't know how much their pain is worth, until they know how much the AA Corp is worth$$$.
I'm glad the Plts are suing, but really folks- it's all about money- it's not about calling, it's not about wanting to lead-- it's about $$$$$.
In essence, whether the current GB stays on board- they'll drain us THE PEOPLE of funds, if a new GB comes on board-- THEY'LL drain us of money.
#35:" . . . will continue to cause great and irreparable injury to Plaintiffs."
#36: "Plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law for the injuries currently being suffered as no amount of money damages can ever compensate the Plaintiffs for the injuries they have and are continuing to suffer."
Folks- it's pay up time. They are asking for a re-election and money$. How much is unclear as they haven't decided how much their suffering is worth. Once they see the bottom line of how much the AA is worth, I'm sure they'll know how much their pain is worth.
Don't get me wrong- the current GB need to be ousted- but do WE really have to pay the Plaintiffs as well?? We'll be lining their pockets as well folks.
Oh and the best one: #4 on the judgment prayer____ "For costs of suit herein incurred; and"
Folks- if the plaintiffs win- and they probably will-- the AA and the GB have to pay their attorneys costs-- my question- what will happen to the funds that were donated to their legal aid? Thicker pockets folks-- thicker pockets-
Either way- we're screwed as an organization. We have people running it that don't give a rats ass about the PEOPLE. We have some who are dying for a spot on the GB because it will 'elevate their social status' within the AA and of course-- for the $$$$$$$$$$$$.
Money talks and BS walks.
Can I sue too?
I can eat!
My hair is falling off!
I dream Valverde dressed up as a turkey giving a turkey cooking lession! (from the pulpit 2)
I dream of Del Campo in a taco eating contest raising money for Eddie!
And Eddie playing golf in a peacocks costume! (is it really a costume?)
Wow this election thing is stressing me out!
Well gotta go call my lawyer
The financial losses could be just fees and costs. Thats why there are no specific damages listed.
In order to get pain and suffering, punitive damages, there have to be conduct that was outrageous to a reasonable person and awarded by a jury.
In my opinion, the plaintiffs are not out to drain the AA of $$$. Again, the money damages called for in the complaint could be just costs, fees to go with a judgment over turning the election and calling for a new one, without the infamous CID.
I agree with Van. You can't correct one wrong my making a BIGGER wrong, who would want them as leaders (if they were to be elected). When everyone knows that they got a large compen$ation at our expen$e. Yes, they could leave the AA, but who would follow them? And besides, aren't they doing this to make the AA better?
They know how much the AA is worth, they were in the GB.
When they win, if they get the fees and expenses paid by the deffendents (The AA can't pay for the GB) maybe they should split the funds between them, for having the guts to stand up and let everyone know what was going on.
One thing for sure, I hope they settle soon and out of court.
If the AA gets audited by the IRS, we are all in trouble, they will probably pull the non-prifit 501c3
status and the AA will have to pay taxes on everythig.
It almost sounds that the section #32 in the official complaint regarding the unknown financial status of the AA has been put there just to open the door for a full-scale audit to the financial spending of the organization. I mean, if the financial status is unknown, they will have to have access to all the AA's financial affairs to make it's status known.
I wonder what they'd find when they open those books?
What auditors will find when they open those books are Edward Pacheco, Sam Valverdes, Leo Maffeys, Abel Aguilar, Gaxiolas, Daniel Sanchez, and Martin Del Campos taco sauce stained finger prints with questionable withdrawls.
Most of these posts are merely observations and opinions about the current issue at hand. However, the current issue at hand is only a symptom of a much wider epidemic that has kept the growth and the framework of the AA weak and stifled.
My question to you as spirit-filled members of the Apostolic Assembly is;
1.) What is your individual responsibility in reversing the disorder that has been plaguing the AA for decades?
2.) Aside from prayer, and as an organization based on Acts(ions), how have you personally contributed in reversing the social and spiritual disorder within the assembly?
3.) Up to what point were your attempts in reversing this sickness become considered feeble or successful?
Ask yourselves these questions, and to make it more interesting post what you come up with here on this blog. It would be interesting to see what has been successful and what has failed. And to see why if failed or why it was successful.
When Baldemar Rodriguez came to California from Texas, and got on the GB, there was a lot of speculation and observation by older and active Bishops (emeritus) as to who he was and what his background was.
He had no interest in Missionary work. Once he was proposed by the GB of that time to send him to be a missionary, but he very emphatically announced that God had not called him to the mission field.
Some of those older Bishops that had supported him to get onto the GB, were very disappointed in him and his lack of vision of the ministry.
These older Bishops, many have gone to be with the Lord, were very suspicious as to where he came from.
Several of them told me personally over and over, (this is before God that I am telling you the truth), that is was very questionable as to Baldemars qualifications to be the President.
After being put on the General Board by the QC because they wanted to block his opponent, they noticed how he was always contridiction and opposing things that could have been good vision and mission for the AA.
Instead, it became a game of building an empire that would control all positions and committees and finances while making the Board Members wealthy.
As an old timer who has seen and heard WAY more than I can ever tell, I am looking at a group of men who, nary a one is going to be the one to take us forward.
I believe that the only one that stands out is Bishop Abel Torres.
I hope he has the where-with-all to not only take on the position, but to take our leadership to a higher level of integrity and honor.
At this point, when it is all about money, I agree with the other blogger that money and control will be the bottom line.
For all you bloggers and Blog Master, Paz de Cristo!
Thank you very much for all you contribute. It is like having a big, daily conference.
Here we are sharing things that were hidden since generations past, we are able to give and hear ideas within the framework of building our Assembly, and not of personal interest as it is with the HGB..
One thing that we can honestly feel proud of, even as angry as we are, we are contributing to the cause and survival of the Apostolic Assembly by voicing our innermost thoughts, generational histories, and experiences like having been shunned by some of the leaders.
Some weeks ago I had dinner with several Pastors and we had the opportunity to discuss the situation that is affecting our church.
They shared a few things, but it was obvious that they were very uncomfortable and did not want to continue the conversation.
Bishops, Pastors, Elders and members who are supporting this fraud and cover up, "Machismo, Patronismo and Nacionalismo" know that they are transparent - no matter how much they try to--
See no evil
Hear no evil
Say no evil
But continue doing evil.
They have..
programed us,
conditioned us,
controled us
threatened us
not to opine on or question any of their wrongdoing.
At the Convention that will be held in Texas, try speaking of these issues in the way we share on this blog, with any other member of the Assembly who is near you, but who you are not acquainted with.
You will probably find that you will be rebuked, shunned, stared at, you will be considered rebellious and fallen from grace.
Do not let this deter you.
That way of running the Church is coming to an end. Let continue to share, pray and believe.
Jose:
Where is this meeting taking place?
In Dallas, or here in California?
Is it going to be in Court?
What court
What division
What time
What city
County of San Bernardino, Rancho Cucamonga District.
while the AA is in convention the attorneys will be in session on Tuesday in Judge Ben T.Kayashima's chambers.
Gracias, Bro. Jose....
Aaahh. . . Brother Abel Torres. I have known him and his family for a very long time. I've known him since before he even got married and I can tell you, from personal experience, this man, IS a Man of God. I knew him as a youth and now as an older person and I can tell you, he is a God fearing man, and his wife, gees, what can I say? She's a gem of a woman. Talk about marrying your soulmate. I've not seen them in many, many years, but I still hear great things about them.
Our organization would be blessed to have Brother Abel Torres as our President. He is educated, I believe he has his masters in education if I'm not mistaken, he is a man of his word, he is a Man of God, he is a consecrated man, I could go on and on.
We must pray so that God send us others like him- men of integrity, true men of honor who's actions command respect- not who's words demand it.
Any news from the homefront? Does anyone know how it went yesterday? Any word on the vibe? Did anyone get booed as they passed by or maybe when they took the pulpit??
For the 1st time in a LONG TIME, I'll be having spending Thanks Giving with my folks.
Maybe we are a cult. Just look at some of the videos on youtube.
I know we have always seen rambling and shaking at the altar as a sign of having the holy ghost.
I'm not saying Speaking in tongues, I'm saying rambling. Speaking in tongues means a clear language. Rambling is something else.
How can a man like Edward Pacheco say he is filled with the holy ghost when his actions are anything except "Christ" Like.
WWJD? Would Jesus get involved in a Car Scam? Would Jesus spend all the budget on luxury? Would Jesus buy for himself 5 luxury homes in 2years?
Would Jesus get a Convicted Felon to again break the Law by getting him involved in something he can't by Law?
Taken from:
http://www.carm.org/cults/cultic.htm
The AA is not a cult! Or is it?
What is a cult?
Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of new ideas.
1. New Teaching - has a new theology and doctrine.
2. Only True Teaching - often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth.
3. Strong Leadership - often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group’s teachings and practices.
4. Asset Acquirement - often requires tithing and/or property transfer to the religious system.
5. Isolationist - to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially, and emotionally.
6. Controlling - exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening lose of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination.
7. Indoctrination - possesses methods to reinforce the cult’s beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented.
8. Apocalyptic - to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it.
9. Experience - various practices including meditation, repetition of words and/or phrases, and ‘spiritual’ enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth.
10. Persecution - predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution.
I think I prefer to go to Convention.
My Thanks Giving will consist of opening a can of spam, puting it in the Micro for 2 minutes, eating it with some top ramen.
Jose,
You're absolutely right, the house is indeed on fire. In fact it's been on fire for decades. Unfortunately the "fire" has and is being interpreted as "Holyghost" fire and not as a warning to get out of deception.
It's sad that the fire the AA celebrates, is the very thing that is killing them. The AA lives and thrives on momentous occasions, ie. conventions, End-Time, camps, revivals. They feed off the fire derived from these emotionally charged events, only to remain unchanged. The only thing needed for them to validate life is this emotion! This emotion helps validate their existence. That's why they jump at the sound of a drum beat, they scream after a 3-2-1 count down, they run when inspired by the sound of fast-paced lyrics. This is the equivalent to pinching yourself to check if you're still alive. Emotion in the AA is used to check whether you're dead or alive.
Emotion does not validate life and neither does it give life - Christ does.
To Repus:
You are right, Christ is what validates life.
But don't be so hard on emotion brother- it's a release.
I agree that most have base their whole christian life as an emotion and miss the WHOLE point of it. You're right, this doesn't mean that you are on fire or that one is holier because we get emotional by running or waiting for the good beat of the good 'ole drum.
However, remember- as Latinos- we're an emotional people. My husband better damn well have some emotion when he makes love to me. Love- emotion. When you are sad- your release for that sadness is tears- emotion. When you are mad- the release is anger- emotion. get the pic?
However, there are some bozos out there who believe that if you don't jump, run and yell- you are spiritually dead when in reality- they're the ones because they do base their existence on that.
To Van:
You hit on speaking in tongues. I have a question for you- sarcasm is not intended- just curious as to you views and comments on this subject.
Do you believe that when someone speaks in tongues, it is actually another language from a foreign country or a foreign language from a group of people? The reason I ask is because I have a friend who says her aunt, when she speaks in tongues, speaks some kind of indian dialect. I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
I know this is off the subject for this blog but I figured I'd take advantage and ask since I'm not too savvy on the topic and I'm quite embarrassed to ask anyone in church since I've been baptized for a long time and have never spoken in tongues.
I stuttered many years ago because that's what I was told to do, and then they announced that I received the HG, but really,I don't think that was it.
What a damper for Baldemar and Homa. Since the 1960's they have not missed a HGB convention.
However, through some very strange circumstances, the plane in Ontario, California would not start. He could not get another flight because of the Thanksgiving Holiday backlog on flights,
I'm here at the hotel trying to reach him, but the front desk told me that his reservations have been canceled.
What a whammer for Salomon, he is going to have to face the music all alone.
Typical of Baldemar to fizzle out and leave someone else holding the bag.
Any of you who will be home for Thanksgiving and have two extra places, invite the Rodriguez's.
Was this divine intervention or a planned diversion?
"Hay de aquel por cual vinieren los
escandalos...
Le seria mejor que se pusiere una piedra de molino en su cuello y se arojare a la profundidad del abismo..."
Connie- what do you mean Solomon has to face the music alone? Aren't Abel Torres and Saul Avila there?
Are you serious or is it a joke??
Why are you trying to reach him anyway?
Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you may be playing both sides of the fence.
Connie:
You're at the hotel trying to reach Baldemar? I take it you are in Texas?
What's the vibe? Anything interesting happen yesterday or today? Anyone get booed as they were passing by or took the platform?
Dear Happy...
I realize that Salomon is not going to be alone at the Convention, I know that the rest are all here.
My point is that Baldemar is the primary person, and he and Salomon recruited the rest.
I AM NOT PLAYING THE FENCE. Only that Baldemar is suing about something he has done for years.
Do you think that this troubles him???
Also, is it true that the Airplane didn't start? I called to see if it was true about the airplane, that is when the front desk said his reservation was canceled.
What do you read into that? Just wanted to know if he was going to arrive at all.
I am for the Apostolic Assembly.
I am for an honest General Board. That is all.
What I am trying to say, is that either way this goes, we have more of the same.....
To "Chismosos",
We both agree for the most part. Yes, us latinos are very passionate and emotional.
However this is why we have a high divorce rate, high teen pregnancy rate, and domestic abuse is rampant among histpanic culture. Because most hispanics are driven by emotions and make decisions based on emotion.
Why is the AA in the situation that it's in? Because it is based on our biggest weakness, emotion.
While emotion and passion is fine in bed, as you eluded to, it definitely is not a measuring stick by which we must live by.
Cheese:
Hmm, interesting question. I must confess, I'm not a graduate of La Puente Bible School nor have I taken Tomos or Sadela.
But the bible does mention that the evidence of having the "Holy Spirit", is "Speaking" in "Other" "Tongues".
Lets break this down.
Holy Spirit, as best I can figuer, is God's spirit inside of us. Having a God's spirit in us would definately change our lives, the way we speak, the way we think, the way we act.
Speaking, as best I can figuer, speaking means a form of communication used to convey messages.
Other, as best as I can define Other, something different from what you use.
Tongues, a clean and concise language used in communication with others.
Based on what I have studied in the Word, I have to conclude that God instilled His Spirit into us when we Recieved Christ as the Messiah. Having revieved God, the spirit, language we speak, would be a language we use to communicate with God. I'm not so sure that speaking in tongues, in the biblical sense, means we can speak Chinese or any other human language. Somehow I have to take it that sense the Holy Spirit is a Gift from God, via accepting Jesus Christ, that this language given to us is intended so we can communicate with God directly. Kind of a HotLine to God.
Again, I'm not a La Puente Bible School graduate, so please bear with me.
Dear Connie,
I have been reading all your blogs, and I find something very interesting. You don't come forth and admit it, but it seems to me that you have something personal against the petitioners of the lawsuit, especially bro Baldemar. ALL your comments are against them. And what I don't understand is that, though I agree with you that he has probably done some injustices himself, NOBODY has ever done things with such arrogance as Sanchez, Valverde, and Pacheco. Yet you seem to be OK with them. Hmmmmm, I wonder....?
.What troubles me the most about all this emotions is that it often is seen as a sign that you are right with God, and if don't shake, like the mountain that shook, you are carnal. Second, all those that preach that God is moving because of all the shaking and running, deem that as a move a God. What? The move if God is shaking and shouting? What about miracles? What about signs? You would think that with the Holy Ghost "so thick" that God would do something other than make the same 10 people shake and scream.
I don't mind all the shaking, but it's getting old. Com'on , is this the best that are Pentecostal leaders can muster up? The hope of the big "move of God" IF...IF you just praise God till midnight, like the old days of Revival.
Now, my third point. What was the fruit of the generation that praised God till midnight? Was it because they praised God till midnight that the miracles came, or was it because people saw actual "unexplainable" events that they stayed interested till midnight? And what big revival happened that we should be duplicating? Where are the millions of people that came to Jesus Christ during this time? Where is the fruit of this generation that praised Him till the morning? Is it this General board, current rank of bishops and their offspring? Is this the fruit of that revival?
We have preachers that preach about some revival, but the best they can muster up is a few good, repeated phrases that get everybody going.
Oh, and I hear it now, its the congregations fault that there is no move of God. If they would just respond to my same ole' phrase that gets everybody going, hopping into the midnight hour, and then we will have revival. Yeah, it’s the members fault.
My point is we need a real move of God. Not this manufactured hysteria created by a skilled few speakers that know all the right things to say, at the right time
Oh leave Connie alone. She's like most of us. We support the awsuit because of all the junk that has gone on over the decades.
Yet, she sees the irony of the plaintiffs. Baldemar, who allowed Pacheco to remain a licensed minister and assist in his transfer to Chile, is now crying fowl.
Or Solomon, whom I witnessed with DISGUST, using images of 9/11 to raise money for Flor Azul or Missions, is now also crying fowl.
Whatever. Its either we set those differences aside and support the movement to clean house, or its time to move out of the house and start fresh.
I for one would hate to leave, but I am not going to support an organization that allows people like Pacheco, Valverde, Sanchez, the Maffey clan to prostitute the church for their own personal gain.
I would rather find some homeless people in need to give my tithes and offerings to. Believe me, in Los Angeles, there are plenty of people that you can witness and minister too.
Ha! People like the Aguilars think you have to travel 2 million miles away to "minister". Sorry, but your stage act of singing is not "Ministry". When did Jesus ever gather a crowd or did a crowd surround him to hear him sing? Answer: NEVER!
Jesus taught and even fed the masses.
Mike A, when did Jesus, The Head Pastor in Charge, ever charge $50.00 for pastors day tickets?
I agree with 95 Theses.
Its time for our church to start using its intellect. Not only spiritual, but secular as well. ?Master the 2, and we can accomplish awesome things for God. Yes, we as God's Instruments here on Earth, with Gods help are his workerbees.
The Azusa Street Revival, which is based on emotion, blabbering lips, and not the Implementation of God's Word in our Daily Lives and Organization has lead to the bastardization and retardation of our church.
People like Valverde like to copy what other preaches preach. He reads their books and their far out explanation for junk like the prosperity doctrine. First base, second base,,,blah blah blah. Find me where baseball is taught in the bible.
I remember about a year ago, when a certain bishops son was in a car accident. Badly injured and almost near death, he managed to survive.
His friends and family proclaimed God had worked a miracle by saving this boys life. That God had done a wonderful thing by letting this boy survive.
Such IGNORANCE!
The True Miracle would have been for this boy to OBEY the speeding laws and not drive in reckless disregard of the law and for the safety of his passenger. The True Miracle would have been for this boy to USE the brain God gave him to make the right deciscion to NOT SPEED and DRIVE RECKLESSLY.
The True Miracle Would have been for this boy not to drive at all since his Driving Privilage was REVOKED by the Authorities.
The True Miracle in our church today is for us to USE God's Word, in our daily lives to make Good God Based Decisions.
The solution is soo simple. All we got to do is read and follow God's Word.
Thank you Van for understanding what I am trying to get across.
My concern is that YES, we need to clean house, but if the housekeeper has dirty hands also, will anything change?
Please be assured that I am for neither side BECAUSE BOTH SIDES ARE DIRTY.
Yes, Sanchez and his cronies have made a disaster of the Assembly. OF THAT THERE IS NO DOUBT.
They have made a embarrassment of our denomination, and continues on as if nothing was wrong.
But if Baldemar picks up the pieces of this organization, will he run it like he used to, being a part of election fraud as he was before when he was President and Vice President?
And after a battle of this magnitude, who can trust anyone?
We will have lost so much of our credibility, our respect, some of our beloved members, many new souls and money out all sides,
WILL ANYTHING CHANGE?
I have spoken to several members of Apostolic churches here in CA. Many do not know about this lawsuit.
The Pastors are also keeping their members in the dark about the Convention.
If anything like a split happens, or if we lose our non profit status, so many innocent people will be affected.
I know so many ladies who are trying to get their husbands in church, this situation will only make their efforts more difficult.
So many young people will be discouraged and disillusioned. It will affect families.
It will make us so much less credible than we already are.
Loved ones, that is my fear, that the price of this lawsuit might be so high, so damaging, and in the end, nothing will change.
“A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land;
The Prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?” Jeremiah 5: 30,31
To 95_thesis,
I see where you're coming from, you just need to take it a bit further. Beyond the hunt for miracles. Because miracles in our day have become about "me" and not about "Him". We have miracle revivals, healing revivals, healing prophets and even healing hankies. The seeking of miracles creates a beating path to "self", whether you're the spectacle or you're the spectator.
Our appetite for miracles is a result of the need to SEE what God is doing so that we won't have to TRUST what God is doing. If we go beyond the need for miracles and establish a desire for the source, you will find Christ. If you find Christ, then you'll realize that being able to have relationship with HIM is a miracle in itself, and that my friend is sufficient enough.
News from the homefront:
I heard that Sanchez announced in the Pastoral meetings that he would not address the issue of the lawsuit because he was instructed by his attorneys not speak on the matter publicly. He apparently told the body of Pastors that he didn't want anyone discussing this in or outside of the meetings.
True, there are certain things he can't discuss in regard to the lawsuit, but there are things he can. He should have addressed it in a dignified way to the pastoral body and let them know what was up.
Apparently, he himself started rebuking the Plaintiffs, rebuking their evil spirits and so on and so on. An attorney for the Plaintiffs was there (who used to be a judge)and has decided that Sanchez said too much defamatory remarks and will probably add defamation of character to the lawsuit, aside from the Fraud.
He didn't want to address ANY questions from the pastoral body in re the lawsuit. Things got so heated that they ended up cancelling the rest of the pastoral meetings for business. They will still have meetings- but not about business. How do you like that?
What we need is to stage a coup-- maybe not so much a violent overthrow, but something needs to be done to get these folks out of power. We're not the military but if plenty go to the HQ and demand a step down- who knows.
Does anyone know if Youth 4 Justice staged a protest at the convention afterall?? Or were they all talk?
Brother Sanchez should have advised and encouraged his board to step down, right along him, IN THE VERY BEGINNING. They should have allowed for an investigative committee to look into the matter, IN THE VERY BEGINNING. Truth of the matter is that the GB knew they had cheated their way into positions and didn’t care. They didn’t think it would ever come out and that NO ONE would ever have the audacity to question them, expose them, and least of all, sue them.
They had AMPLE time to rectify this situation. AMPLE time to come clean and come out with some shred of dignity. Should have, could have, would have . . . if only.
If Pacheco had any ounce of true love for the work of the Lord and any love for this organization, that has been his bread and butter for so long mind you, he should have been the FIRST to step down even before Brother Sanchez should have advised it. He is at the root of this fiasco. He is at the root of this immanent division. How can he accept a position that he didn’t rightfully attain? That alone speaks volumes about his character. But then can you expect any more from a man that is surrounded by so much controversy? His testimony has been tainted from years ago! It should weigh heavy on him that he is at the cause of this debacle. But a person like him is too proud and arrogant to ever admit or show that he was wrong.
CeCe is right, we need to stage a coup. We may not have the military on our side, but we have a strong pastoral body of 600+. If two or three demand the GB step down, they themselves could be taken off pastorship, they could be excommunicated etc., BUT if the 600+ strong pastoral body banns together and DEMANDS a step down and hold re-elections- what are they gonna do? take the 600 + off pastorship? I don't think they have the nerve right now to take ANYONE off for fear of another lawsuit.
The GB made a mess, made a joke of our voting system, and have disgraced our organization. They ALL need to step down.
Enough is enough!!!
Brother Sanchez should have advised and encouraged his board to step down, right along him, IN THE VERY BEGINNING. They should have allowed for an investigative committee to look into the matter, IN THE VERY BEGINNING. Truth of the matter is that the GB knew they had cheated their way into positions and didn’t care. They didn’t think it would ever come out and that NO ONE would ever have the audacity to question them, expose them, and least of all, sue them.
They had AMPLE time to rectify this situation. AMPLE time to come clean and come out with some shred of dignity. Should have, could have, would have . . . if only.
If Pacheco had any ounce of true love for the work of the Lord and any love for this organization, that has been his bread and butter for so long mind you, he should have been the FIRST to step down even before Brother Sanchez should have advised it. He is at the root of this fiasco. He is at the root of this immanent division. How can he accept a position that he didn’t rightfully attain? That alone speaks volumes about his character. But then can you expect any more from a man that is surrounded by so much controversy? His testimony has been tainted from years ago! It should weigh heavy on him that he is at the cause of this debacle. But a person like him is too proud and arrogant to ever admit or show that he was wrong.
CeCe is right, we need to stage a coup. We may not have the military on our side, but we have a strong pastoral body of 600+. If two or three demand the GB step down, they themselves could be taken off pastorship, they could be excommunicated etc., BUT if the 600+ strong pastoral body banns together and DEMANDS a step down and hold re-elections- what are they gonna do? take the 600 + off pastorship? I don't think they have the nerve right now to take ANYONE off for fear of another lawsuit.
The GB made a mess, made a joke of our voting system, and have disgraced our organization. They ALL need to step down.
Enough is enough!!!
TO: CECE
I heard the same thing last night. After Sanchez announced that Rodriquez, Salomon, Torres and Avila were suing the AA because of the results of the elections results he asked everyone to pray. During his prayer Sanchez started rebuking and saying that this was all a diabolical. He started rebuking demons.
Several Pastors were commenting that it sounded like Sanchez was saying that the above-meantioned were demon possessed or being used by the devil.
FYI: Bro. Baldemar Rodriquez is at the convention, he arrived late this afternoon yesterday.
Yours truly,
THE INSIDER
Maybe we don't have the military on our side, but,we are an ARMY.
We have the power of the pen and in this day and age, the power of the internet and email.
I say that people should flood the GB with emails asking them to do the right thing and step aside.
Maybe, just maybe, if they see that a large number of members are
not happy with them, they will
let an investigative committee look into the matter and have it be a bindding decision.
Even better, they should step down and let a new election select a GB.
I agree with all of you who say that they should have done that in the beginning. Even if it was not all true, just to errase any doubts and apperance of wrong doing.
Idea:
Does anyone have the telephone number to the hotel that Sanchez, Valverde and Pacheco are staying at?
Does anyone know what rooms they are in?
Why?
We can call their hotel room, leave a voice mail in their hotel room phone.
When they get in, the red light will be flashing.
Then, when they call the voice mail, they'll here a voice mail asking them to resign!
Or even call their rooms at 4:00am
If we are at war, the lets commence the psychological warfare phase.
Hey Insider, can you get that info?
Maverde would bury his bible. Not like he uses it. He's got all those other books from his prophets TD Jakes, Rick Warren, Creflo Dollar.
I have only one thing to say, ya'll have too much time on your hands in trying to find every possible thing wrong in the AA, as if your life were any better. The Bible is explicit in saying things against God's annointed. You better clean up your act before the Lord comes, this is the sign of the end times. I'd sleep with one eye open if I were you.
Sharon:
Allow me to retort.
For someone who mentions what "Specifically" the bible states, you should know what the bible says about Theft and Fraud.
If you know what the bible "Specifically" says, then why do you allow Pacheco, Sanchez, Valverde to be your leaders?
Sleep with one eye open? ja ja...now I know you dont read the bible.
Go back to your Jaunita Bynum website.
Oh, Dorcas are having an emergency meeting to raise money for Pacheco's house payments.
to Sharon.
I agree with you, we should not speak wrong of God's annointed,
if it's not true, but they have done wrong.
When king David sinned, the prophet called him on it.
We don't have any prophets like in king Davids time. The Bible says, if you see your brother sin, tell him that he may repent. It's up to us to point the wrongs to them.
I love Bro. Dan, I have known him for a long time, the same with the rest of the GB I'm on first name bases with all of them.
But I'm not blind to the wrongs they have done, and not only the present GB but previous ones also.
They seem to be like pastors only after the sheep$ wool.
I'm not perfect, never have been, never will (until Jesus comes).
The GB needs remember that they live in a glass house and that the higher you go in the pyramid the less room you have for error because you are more visible to more people.
This whole mess is only going to cause weak people to stumble and fall.
As the Bible say's, because of the increase of sin (and I think that what they are doing is a sin),
the good in people will turn cold.
(sorry, I didn't go to Bible College, I can't quote the verse.)
Many people will stop helping and giving because of the lack of trust.
I just keep praying that this all works out for the best.
"what the Devil ment for evil, God can turn it to good"
My Dad who is a pastor from Southern CA district did confirm that the President did identify the plaintiffs by name there at the convention. He also told me that the President did make a few boo-boos which will come back and bite him. The President said pointing to the pastors that "the plaintiffs were suing the AA", which is not true. If you read the complaint on info right, the plaintiffs are suing 10 defendants. We also heard that immediately after the President did his presentation there was no time for the plaintiffs to comment publicly. One plaintiff we are told went to the platform and corrected the President on his wrong statement "that the plaintiffs were suing the AA" and that the President put his head down when he got confronted.
I wonder who that plaintiff was that approached the President?
What convined me of the HolyGhost.
I went to a small church in Central Calif.. a local brother had invited his boss, who was Japanese... at the end of the service in the alter call, an old hermano that only spoke spanish started speaking in tongues.. this old brother only spoke spanish.. at the end of the service the boss came and asked his worker who that old man was and who taught him to speak Japanese..
I pray that God will have mercy on us all. Please, for your own sake, refrain from speaking evil against those that God has placed over us. You can't change anything with gossip nor will you try to change anything on your own accord. You are all to scared. So live with it and accept it. I am sorry to tell you all that nothing you say or do is of any consequence.
dan yo son?
or is it
Dan yo Sanchez?
We ain't scared of you or your board..the sooner you know that the better it will be.
Danyoson:
We are speaking evil about those over us?
Yes, I agree. We are speaking of the EVIL that those over us,the HGB have DONE by their EVIL ACTIONS.
Sai-o-nara
From what little I have read on the blog regarding the Convention, and have seen of Sanchez lately, it seems like the man is under a great deal of strain and the cracks are beginning to show.
He is having trouble handling the position of President. With opposing lawyers sitting in the audience, the pressure is probably beyond what he is able to handle.
Had all the Pastors stayed home, minded their own business and shared Thanksgiving with their family, Sanchez would not have had the support of the vast audience who will, in the end, do nothing.
The Pastors are still letting a defeated man who refuses to give up, continue attempts at a leadership which from this time forward, will be meaningless at best.
Come Convention services this weekend, everyone will behave as is nothing is going on.
We will cow-tow to the powers as they strut before us. It all remains the same. This shows that regardless, the General Board is still in control.
It seems to me that this is at a Mexican impasse with no solution.
Desde el mas grande al mas pequeno
nuestra asamblea contaminda
por lideres que no aman a Dios
solo aman sus pocisiones
su salario y sus beneficios
no les importa la gente
no tienen temor a la palabra de Dios
quien tiene la culpa
nosotros que permitimos todo esto
nosotros que ofrendamos y diezmamos
Pregunto.?
hasta cuando vamos a permitir todo esto...?
Can anyone provide us information as to what the attendance is like in Dallas? Is there a strong showing of pastors and ministers?
A quick note. We must realize that anything that D. Sanchez does is going to be magnified and criticized.
To SO CAL DISTRICT MAN:
The "Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus, a California Non-Profit Religious Corporation", is specifically named as a defendant in the case along with 110 (one hundred and ten - Doe's 1-100) other defendents. You can read the complaint yourself, on the first page of this blog there is a link to the document on AA.info.
So Brother Sanchez was correct in saying that the plaintiffs are suing the Apostolic Assembly.
Those pastors in attendance better speak up now regardless of the side they are on.
Silence is Consent.
My opinion has always been that our Pastors and Ministers allowed this situation to take place by staying silent, thus giving their consent. Call your pastor and tell him to voice his opinion now! But given the outright fear of Pastors from what Members have expressed here, I doubt that will happen.
On a lighter note, I wish all my brothers and sisters a Very Happy and Blessed Thanksgiving.
Yours Truly,
Apostolic Voice
Blogmaster
For those interested, below is the link to the California Corporation Code Section 9418 which is sited through out the complaint.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=7492786480+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve
I read it as: that after the articles or bylaws to remedy the situation have exhausted the State of CA steps and determines the validity of an election. "If"(HELLO CID) the State of CA finds that 2006 election was invalid they will order it nullified and order (this is not clear to me) a new election or ask the State of CA appoint the appropriate positions.
With the CID in place an approved by all the Pastors and Ministers, its going to be tough to overturn this last election.
See Below----------------------
9418. (a) Upon the filing of an action therefor by any director or
member, or by any person who had the right to vote in the election at
issue after such director, member, or person has exhausted any
remedies provided in the articles or bylaws, the superior court of
the proper county shall determine the validity of any election or
appointment of any director of any corporation.
(b) Upon the filing of the complaint, and before any further
proceedings are had, the court shall enter an order fixing a date for
the hearing, which shall be within five days unless for good cause
shown a later date is fixed, and requiring notice of the date for the
hearing and a copy of the complaint to be served upon the
corporation and upon the person whose purported election or
appointment is questioned and upon any person (other than the
plaintiff) whom the plaintiff alleges to have been elected or
appointed, in the manner in which a summons is required to be served,
or, if the court so directs, by registered mail; and the court may
make such further requirements as to notice as appear to be proper
under the circumstances.
(c) The court, consistent with the provisions of this part and in
conformity with the articles and bylaws to the extent feasible, may
determine the person entitled to the office of director or may order
a new election to be held or appointment to be made, may determine
the validity of the issuance of memberships and the right of persons
to vote and may direct such other relief as may be just and proper.
The thing here is, in my opinion that the CID was not applied to Pacheco nor Valverde or the other ones that don't meet the CID standards.
Especially one Edward Pacheco who in my opinion has quite a shady past.
what's eddie's "shady" past?
I am at Convention now with my family. Although I am UPC I and my family are pretty involved in the AA as my wife and her parents are associated with the AA. I will do my best to report the overall atmosphere, and tone of the convention. Although I must say, even with just being at an off site hotel, the atmosphere even here is quite tense.
Being I am not from the AA, I hope to be a bit objective, and leave my opinions at the perverbial door.
I just heard from a Convention Attendee....
The Place is filled to capacity.
A sister from Arizona who recently had knee surgery, and is not in ministry, does not have children in MOP, came because this is her vacation, she is having a wonderful time...
These are other remarks heard from different members....
THIS IS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL RESORT...
WE EVEN HAVE SANTA HERE, WALKING THROUGH THE RIVERWALK.
THE DECORATIONS ARE SPECTACULAR,
THE THANKSGIVING BANQUET IN THE BIG GALA BALLROOM WAS FABULOUS, ...PACKED TO CAPACITY....
THANKS TO BRO. SANCHEZ WHO MADE THIS ALL POSSIBLE FOR US.
WE ARE ONLY PAYING $90. PER NIGHT INSTEAD OF $300.00 HE IS WONDERFUL!!!
The members do not even know when the services are, nor do they care.
There is nothing spiritual about this event.
It is vacation in a place where people couldn't go under any other circumstances.
At this point, if Mickey Mouse became the next President, it would not matter to the majority of the people.
So where do we go from here? Just a few of us are concerned about what is happening and about the ramifications of the outcomes.
It may be that the atmosphere among the Pastors and the General Board is tense, but the average member is having a ball.
Last note...Blogmaster, I was reflecting on what you said about the Pastors taking on a more pro- active role in this, but consider...
If they side with Baldemar, and Baldemar loses, they will be blackballed by Sanchez, and the flip side, if Sanchez loses, then Baldemar will set them aside.
For the Pastors, getting involved is a lose--lose situation.
Ay caramba, how do we unknot this?
Ultimately the overall mood and atmosphere is as previously reported. Tense. The Symposium has been great, but it has a definate overtone of "faithfulness" to ladership, and integrity. During the "Ministeral Body" portion the need for leadership and submission to that leadership was repeatedly mentioned.
There was also a report submitted by the Board explaining a "Falsified Letter". A letter was ent to many pastor explaining a portion of the meeting in which a few pastors would be seperating themselves from the AA, and questions would be welcome in return.
The letter was signed by the Secratary and listed on the letter were the names of the rest of the Board.
The letter in fact was not sent by the Board.
The Conference as a whole is a bit confusing. There doesnt seem to be any "General Sessions" as in times past. Lots of dead time, and a lot of time between sessions.
Ok... Im going to say it. And Of everyone here I think I probably have the most reason to say it as I have been a professional Audio Engineer for over 13 years...
What is it with Apostolic Organizations? (AA, and IAFCJ) Dont you guys know how to hire a good sound guy??? Does it always go to the lowest bidder or what???
The echo in the ballroom tonight was so unbarable my mother-in-law left within 10 min, and i followed with my wife, Bro-in-law, Dad-in-law, wife, and son after the first speaker. I was so disappointed by the sound I even gave my card to Jeff Aguilar telling him I could help him with the echo problem myself if needed.
The sound was horrible... Thats all Im going to say about that (again)
A "Art of Persuasion" offering was taken using the who will give $100 tactic. And thats after charging $25 per person to go to church. ($37,500 if there was 1500 people there) Forgive me if I did in fact miss someone, but I dont think I aw ANY of the leaders on the platform step forward to give... either out of humilty or maybe out of the fact that its a bad idea to start pointing out peoples generosity. Remeber the womena who gave her all??? HELLO... does anyeone read the Bible anymore??? Are are we all just listening to Joel Osteen and hoping for the best???
A Home Missions Pastor told me in one of the meetings earlier the Home Missions budget for the year was $511,000. That equates to $28000 of service offered to each missionary, and we ALL know they are not getting that kind of support. (Not that I expect each Pastor to get a salary or anything)
The convention doesnt actually end till Saturday morning, and almost everyone I spoke to is either leaving first thing in the morning or tomorrow afternoon.
Everything is still pretty chaotic.
Most young people have no real opinion as the the issues at hand. More of a "Who cares" attitude.
Most of the Pastors and Ministers have a sense of urgency in the eyes, but no one seems to do anything.
But there are 2 days left... lets see what happens.
My mother-in-law left the service within 10 minute due to bad sound. She sold her arm band to someone... I think that sums up the sessions for today.
Although I am looking forward to some of the breakout sessions tomorrow... If you are a lady and can go... please attend Aiko Romos session about being a Wonder Woman... I know her personally and can atest to her annointing and class.
Jose: drop me a line at joshbayne80@gmail.com
Talk to you tomorrow
Yaaawwnn. Well, just as I expected, for all you who are hoping to see some great change or some kind of armegedon to occur within this assembly -- Great news!! Nothing is going to happen!! Everything is staying the same. True, there have been some mistakes made but I assure you nothing is changing.
Van, you are so bitter. Did one of these guys pass you up in the line up? Are just tired of always being the last one picked? lol, lol!!!
Yaaawwnn. Well, just as I expected, for all you who are hoping to see some great change or some kind of armegedon to occur within this assembly -- Great news!! Nothing is going to happen!! Everything is staying the same. True, there have been some mistakes made but I assure you nothing is changing.
Van, you are so bitter. Did one of these guys pass you up in the line up? Are just tired of always being the last one picked? lol, lol!!!
To "the shadow," or is it the lame-o? Just a bit off the mark... What are you going to do? Really. You and most of these folks on here posting "big and bad" opinions about what should be done are never going to do anything. Let's face it, we all need to vent but none of you are going to make a bit of differance with just commenting, gossiping, or commiting lies. It is quite humerous to me that any of you believe that you can actually bring a change to the situation with the AA. Although I do not have any solid evidence, I will venture to say that you bloggers represent less than 5% percent of LA district churches. NO ONE CARES! Most AA members will continue business as usual. See Ya!
Danyosan:
How did you know?
Do us a favor, say something resembling intellegent.
Better yet, do something that will
be an example of Godly charity.
Sorry, but being in Edward Pachecos pockets does not count.
Are you kidding me??? Did I just read what I thought I read???
A spiritual whore???
May I remind you kind sir, of the words Gods spoke to David as he was rebuked for "touching" Gods annointed? Just because Bro Pacheco isnt who you would want him to be, doesnt mean he' not the man for the job. Even David was still fit to be king after he had someone murdered.
Listen, I agree that Bro Pacheco's past can be considered spotty, but guess what... so is yours. You just havent risen to "power" and had it exposed.
So is mine, yet, I am from the UPC, so you dont know anything about it.
It is people like yourself and Danyoson, that things DONT get done. Instead of working things out using the process, you degrade and disrespect the process by starting to throw jab at eachother and the ones involved instead of working it out.
If both of you, as well as thr General Board and afore mentioned plantiffs would spend more time using the process none of this would have happened in the first place.
How do you plan on making a change? Gonna call the Bishops room at 4 am??? Gonna start a petition of young people??? Gonna continue to blast annointed men of God for their pasts???
Its the same in the UPC... if people would begin to use the process to create change there wouldnt be a meeting coming up in Tulsa for people to create a split in the UPC due to resolution 4.
All that to say this... GROW UP, and Use the process. None of this infighting and offensiveness is needed.
I will leave you to your ignorance and although it may sound cliche-ish, I will pray God changes your heart.
(Please understand, its not that I dont disagree with you, but there are much better ways of expressions your distrust for the man. But then again, it's not like you'll ever walk up to him and tell him that to his face.)
Mr Bayne, I do have respect for men of God.
Pacheco, is no man of God. Pacheco is a man of his own greed. He has demonstrated over the years his own lust for money. He uses the church, the cause of the Gospel, to line his own pockets. The facts are laid out in earlier posts. They can be confirmed.
As for me going up to him personally, would you like to make a Texas sized wager on that?
Pacheco is a scam, his cousin has proven to be his accomplice, and they both need to be dealt with. The legal process has begun, but also, the political process has begun. They like to play politics with the church, then the church will play politics with them.
I know you respect men of God, and I know that your feelings towards Pacheco are valid. Please dont mis-understand my words of caution as words of disbelief.
I am just cautioning you. Your frustration towards Pacheco could be much better used in another form...
Although... with the amount of frustration I can sense in your words, its probably better you voice it here and not in other ways. LOL... You Latino men can have tempers!!! LOL
Dont worry Mr. Bayne, Pacheco, like us, are having a nice week off. I hope 2vote Eddie enjoyed his convention time. Cause when he gets back to California, its back to his headaches.
Afterall, a man with 5 luxury homes in the last 2 years, plus several luxury cars, has a lot of work to do. The clock is ticking for this man. His time living the life of Reily will be ending some time in the near future.
At one point or another, he's raised an eyebrow or two.
Ok... thats enough with the Mr. Bayne crap.
I prefer Grand PooPaa!!!
Danyosan:
So I was Just a bit off the mark. Good to know I wasn't off to much.
And about not doing anything about it. Well Mr. I have gone head to head with a bishop. True it didn't really help cause its just swept under the carpet. But that was me all by myself at the time. Get more on the band wagon like we have on here and we might be able to put a dent on it. I know the HGB knows that we are fed up with it.
"Gossiping, or commiting lies"
My friend I am neither a gossiper or lier!
I was informing about a sitution in my church that was going wrong, and the truth was on my side with all the proof needed.
But your are right about me not being able to change things, but maybe with a few hundred. Maybe?
"Or is it the lame-o?"
Sad to say my wife agrees with you on that one.
Can we talk? IT'S GETTING A LITTLE UNINTERESTING...DULL... AA,GB,QC,SANCHEZ,PACHECO,CAR SCAMS, WHAT ELSE IS NEW...
Sorry I didnt do much reporting today. My wife is super sick and we have a 4 month old. between taking care of them both I had no time for the morning services.
But you'll never guess what happened during th night time youth service. yep you guessed it... horrible sound.. again... and then there was the offering.
Not sure who it was but, who ever it was started the offering session out by explaining how much money was needed.
He said this year there was only about 64000 raised as oppsed to last years 98000... so a 35000 deficit. The budget for the convention was 65000, and they needed a 75000 offering to make the Gaylord happy... ok... so... lets see...
34500 (Registration of 1500 @ 25 ea)
65000 (Budget for Convention)
75000 (Need to cover all costs)
Uhhhh I dont get it...
Was he saying that in order to cover the deficiet of last years total offering as well as the other moneyt to cover the costs for the convention they needed 75000???
So youre telling me they budgeted based on last years numbers (which btw was via the CA districts not TX)????????
Everyone know you have to average years past for budgets. For Gods sake this is simple math!!!
I will say though that the person taking the offering did mention he was going to give $500. And about 5-7 of the ministers on the platform came forward for $100+ offerings... good goin guys!!
The Youth Service Offering took over 30 minutes!!! ((Sigh))
Ok... the General Session...
I only was there to hear Bishop Abel Aguilar speak. Sound was a little better. Some people got healed, and they paraded them across the stage a la Benny Hinn... Bro Valverde started asking for $5000 offerings from different pastors... Not to much different than normal. Abel was good... well really good... as usual.
My dearest Van, I feel an urgent need to ask your forgiveness. I did not mean to touch on such a sensitive subject for you. I certainly did not intend for you to say such horrible things about any one pastor.
Look, I have been hurt many times by other pastors and it would certainly feel good to trash their name a bit on this blog but I fear that God may be greatly displeased with me by doing so. Even though you may not know me (who is Mike A.?), again, I ask your forgiveness. Please keep in mind that even though your feelings toward Mr. Pacheco may be valid, for your own sake, do not say such horrible things. You will be judged by God for every idle word you, I, all of us, will and have said. I say this sincerely.
As to Pacheco and friends, like it or not, they are still being used by God to bring the lost to Christ. What are we doing for the lost?
Mr. Bayne, thank you for your kind words, I humbly accept your rebuke. But before you try and help me with the sty in my eye... You seem to me like one who, as an outsider, feels justified in speaking for those who won't. Dare I say that you also should examine your motives and if there be any evil thing in your heart, cleanse yourself of it.
The shadow, I truly appreciate your humor; it is well needed. However, what can we really expect from an assembly such as ours. We try so hard to keep things under our own control. We are so afraid of letting true talented men and women take the role of leadership because of what we will lose--position!
I think that the best thing that could happen to our churches is that we each become independent. Let every church sustain itself, let every member learn to work for the community instead of wasting hours upon hours at mindless meetings, secotor and district alike. This would enable us to be more productive with our time, money, and effort.
Sadyly, this assembly will never change. It will continue to be run the way it always has.
Dear Danyoson:
I will have to agree with you.
The AA will NEVER change. Something’s will change a little, but the majority of things will not.
As for the corruption on the GB that will never change. I must say that the corruption is just not at the GB level it is all the way down the hill. Please excuse my words but stuff rolls down hill.
Sanchez will always be manipulated by Sam. Sam will always want power. Eddie will always want to be taller (I mean want more money). Abel will always be Abel. Victor will always be a great politician. Martin de Campo will always want Sandra (girl Friday) by his side.
God Help Us.
Organizations must go through changes: Downsizing, re-organization, spin off productive business lines, cut off non-productive ventures, which all should be for the purpose of steady and positive growth.
The AA is no different. The AA leaders must realize that this can be (is a) positive thing. Just like a bush that needs to be trimmed, pruned, reshaped and reformed.
There are alot of hurt feelings. They must be addressed or the entire bush will be affected and weakened, which with out a doubt we are.
Let's not be ashamed to admit it, we need reformation in order gain credibility, integrity, balance, purpose and re-direction.
Preacher are not necessarily good administrators. Administrators are not necessarily good musicians. Musicians, well, there not good for anything...JUST KIDDING! My point is that we need people in the National Leadership positions that are qualified to do the job. Not because they have been a Pastor or Bishop. We need to have people in these positions that have a calling (passion, education, leadership skills) to run the different departments.
Take for example Social Assistance. What previous experience does the person running for this position have? Have they run an effective SA-Non-profit organization in their local church, district, professional organization or governmental entity? Do they interact with their counterparts in other organizations? Are they part of any other SA organizations? Have they experience in preparing, writing and obtaining grants from Trusts and Foundations?
We should be asking these questions for all the positions.
I have more to say but there are some good college football games starting shortly.
See you after the game.
Lets see if I got this straight, the GB was asking for additional offering to help cover laster years convention in Long Beach?
The GB was asking Texas to cover a California cost?
Well, not bad after all that Enron thing. lol j/k
Hey, all you who went to convention just need to stop complaining and plant that seed of faith. Dig Deep. Give and extra First Fruit. Shoot, why even bother keeping the harvest. Just turn it all over to the GB.
Do you think its easy being a GB member?
As they say in hip hop, "Ain't eazy being a pimp".
Do dig deep, give generously to the GB. I need 200 of you right now to send Valverde $5,000.
Timmy needs to be paid, Sam needs a new Escalade.
I would say Sam Needs to read his bible, but sense he buried it, its moot.
Thanks for a wonderful convention Texas. You paid for it and for last years convention too. lol
Edward Pacheco is used by God, in the same sense God uses Satan and his Demons.
Even cow manuer is used to fertilize plants.
Go USC!!
I heard the Bishop Lopez collected 675k.
The Bishop Lopez?
For what?
For who?
When?
Where?
Wow, why doesn't any of this surprise me? 20 years ago, I was an Apostolic and everything you all are discussing now, was already happening back then. (But, no one ever talked about it). Because the church was always run by "families". I commend you all for speaking up, I hope that your voices will be heard. Because unfortunately the church is full of hypocrites. Please make a difference.
They wanted to pick up 1 million for home missions.
Home as in the General Office's pockets as always!fan
I pray that if everything being said about Bro. Pacheco is not true so that he does not end up in prison. But if he does maybe he could start the pinta promise keepers. On a more serious note, has convention attendance dropped? About how many people go these days? During the offering collections, I wonder if people are giving cash or writing checks? If people are giving cash who is responsible for counting and does the HGB, convention committee or other important figures get first dibs to the pot? I wonder how much of this cash is accounted for when they produce the treasury report?
I was glancing at the treasury report on AA info and it seems that the majority of the money goes to the HGB and their so-called operating cost and hardly anything goes to establishing new churches. So much for Bro. Sanchez mission statement of exalt Christ, Equiping the Church and evangelize the world. How much of the national budget goes to evangelize the world?
Who were the speakers for conference?
The GB sure likes to put out its hat and plea for money. They just keep asking for more.
Which wouldn't be bad at all if they would put the money to work in charitable manner as prescribed in the Bible and even the IRS Tax code.
Here's an idea, Sam and the rest of the GB are backers of the prosperity doctrine/first fruit doctrine.
Why don't they put that concept to work with AA General Funds?
Have every department give, a seed of faith, the first fruit of its harvest, and 10% to another non-profit.
Put your preachings to action instead of begging for more and more money. Become God Dependant with church finances.
quite listen
I think everyone expected some huge explosive change to happen, but in reality- not much did.
Oh I’m sure the infamous GB got the cold shoulder here and there, I’m sure Pachueco got the ‘glares’ from a few people here, etc. but they can hang with that.
Fact of the matter is NOTHING changed. The infamous GB will remain in power in 2010, if the Lord doesn’t come sooner, because BELIEEEEEVE me folks, the litigation process in this will be a SLOOOOOOOOOOW one. It’s not over in less than an hour like on T.V.
However, back in the land of the working people, it will be business as usual. We are left to deal with the power-hungry bishops who aren’t doing their jobs-- bullying the ‘little’ pastors while keeping their incompetent favorites in place; we will still have the arrogant GB members strutting around as if though everything is ok and they are God’s gift to US; while WE will still kiss their flat behinds when we see them and greet them as if we have said nothing negative about them; we will still give to the Flor Azul blindly believing that 100% of the monies collected actually reaches the missionaries; we will still give blindly to our district and national projects believing they are used in a manner that is pleasing to God; we are still left to deal with pastors leaving the churches to Jr.; it is time to wake up folks! Truth of the matter, it is life as usual.
Yes the lawsuit was filed but again, it will be a slow process. I agree with an earlier post that suggested that the 600+ pastors need to bann together and demand a step-down. There is power in numbers and they shouldn’t be afraid of doing that.
I heard the numbers at this convention were pretty low- not what they expected- roughly 2500- can anyone verify? Did anyone get booed?
What happened to all the hot air blown by Youth 4 Justice about protesting at convention??
I for one, hope the process takes a while. That will give me more time to dig into Edward Pacheco's closet.
I'm more than sure the skeletons are many. Who knows what evil this man has done. Who knows what other Questionable company he has kept.
For those that want immediate results, patience my brothers, patience.
Don't think that things can't change. Nor lose hope. Israel wasn't created over night. Nor was it created without sacrifice.
The convention wasn't the time nor the place for the fight. It wasn't a voting convention. It was a mere vacation and fundraiser.
Church leadership is going through a change of guard as the emerging generation comes of age.
As I said before, the only way there's going to be a change is if people divert their givings Like offering only, no tithes, so that HQ doesn't get the 10%, when more people leave to another organization, the AA membership drops and pastors have difficulty making mortgage payments.
By the way, did anyone notice in the treasurers report the amount of money that is owed to the AA by local churches?
Who are this churches that owes them over 5 million dollars?
Page 5 & page 12 Note 4.
Can a legal beagle tell me if this is legal according to the IRS?
Is there a prmmisory note, or other legal document signed by the borrowing church?
For what purpose were the loans made?
Membership and statistics
In 2005, the Apostolic Assembly was comprised of over 800 congregations in the United States, as well as various missions in over 20 countries. Estimated worldwide membership is more than 130,000. Note that these membership figures are only rough estimates, as there has been no systematic collection of membership information, especially from newer and smaller churches.
As noted above, the Apostolic Assembly arose to meet the need to reach out to Mexican immigrants who were largely ignored by other Pentecostal denominations. Whereas this situation led to the development of a self-governed movement, this history also has presented severe challenges that continue to this day.
One recurrent challenge is connected to the composition of its membership. Since most of its members have historically been Mexican immigrants, Church growth has been subject to fluctuations in migration trends. Because of its mobile nature, immigrant communities are hard to count and keep as stable groups. But while challenging, the reliance on immigration has also helped membership in recent times. The Apostolic Assembly, like most Christian denominations in the United States, has problems retaining members, especially younger generations. A continued flow of immigration has undoubtedly kept membership figures from falling drastically, although there are no figures to actually track membership changes over time.
Another concurrent challenge has been the requirement to minister to both Spanish- and English-speaking members. Historically, Spanish has been the de facto language of the denomination, but newer generations do not always share the same cultural values and language as old and new migrant members. In response, there is an emergent trend of English-speaking congregations, along with a more deliberate attempt to reach Hispanic-Americans who do not speak Spanish.
Finally, the denomination is challenged by its organizational capability. Early leaders supervised a relatively small number of congregations established along migrant routes. As the church has grown, it has become more difficult to oversee a larger number of congregations. A manifestation of this problem is the lack of reliable membership data. A recent official document acknowledges these and other related problems and provides a roadmap of strategies to enhance membership growth (please browse official page for more information).
It is important to note, also, that in recent years there has been a more notable display of lack of education on minister's behalf. In Mexico, there are very different standards as to who is ordained and to who is not. There are differen and controversial rules as to how much theological education on should have in order to be ordained or to become a pastor. The irony,however, is that a major and signifiant part do not hold theological degrees, secular degrees, or even a high school diploma or its Mexican equivalent. Lately, I have witnessed acts of corruption, controversial politics and standards within the church, and even some religious intolerance and animosity from preachers, pastors, deacons, and other ministers directed towards other relgions such as Islam and other denominatios such as Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, and Trinitarians. Not only this but education is linked to intellectuality and modernity which results in several members of the AAFCJ in Mexico to be against secular education. This is due to, as the author earlier reported, that the early AAFC was mostly composed of first generation American immigrants who had no theological or secular education. Today, the most likely solution to this problem is to have a higher standard and selective criteria that would screen for close-minded, intolerant, and fundamentalist men who attempt to hold ministerial positions. If such measures were observed, I believe that the AAFC would grow much faster, be more respectful of other religions, and be open to equal treatment for women. (Jorge Lopez, B.A. San Diego State University, Religious Studies Kobe cdd 20:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC))
There are many, many, many things that need to be changed in our organization. One thing in particular is the treatment of women.
The Apostolic Man seems to think that women are only good for cooking and multiplying the church membership.
The Apostolic Man seems to think that women can and should only teach children, let alone any adult classes that include men, much less teach ministers (who seem to think they know it all).
The Apostolic Man seems to think that the only ministry a woman can have is singing. When in fact there are many many ministries that we can contribute to. Pastors with this kind of mentality lack vision for their churches and they are passing this type of thought to Jr. when he takes over the church after Daddy retires. It's pretty pathetic.
Most ministers in churches are so full of themselves that they believe that they know it all already and are not open to ANYTHING but what they already know. Which is part of the reason that churches ARE NOT growing.
Most churches are STILL trying to kickstart their English Services after 5 years of trying and can't get past the same 12 people. The spanish services are still at the same number they were 5 years ago- different people but still the same amount.
It's really a shame that you can visit any church and some still have the ministers sitting on a platform as though they were gods. They sit up there looking down at everyone-- speaking not a word of worship- just dead up there. Except when THEY take the pulpit, then they want everyone to be running and jumping and any other time you can't get an Amen out of them. All with their little bottle of oil ready to drown the next victim. Most of these ministers are so machistic that they would rather die in ignorance than ever be taught by a woman- it explains though why their wives usually have the type of spiritual lives that they do. Some of these wives do so many things behind their husband's back that if they found out- they'd die of shock.
Very few are pastors who actually have vision for women to be used in their churches in different ministries. Very few. It's a shame.
There could have been a much better attendance at the Convention if the Pastors would have give enough information to the church members so that they could make proper plans to attend. The members were told that it was a ministerial convention only.
I myself believed that it was only for ministers until others told me differently.
However, the Board, the Bishops and Pastors did not want their church members there. They were afraid of a demonstration. So they did not promote the Convention. They kept saying it would be only for Pastors and all other Clergy and Administration.
What happened to the 200 or more Youth for Justice from southern and central California that was supposed to make their statement?
On another note:
Why in the world, does the HGB use ex-Bishop Adam Lopez from Union City as an offering collector when he is such a dud? During the day at the Convention, he had the dullest personality, he didn’t speak to pastors, or greet the membership because he really has no education and no personality or Christian love. His claim to fame is that he was the son-in-law of Antonio Nava, so they still use him and recognize him.
I was in the audience when he was collecting the offering and I saw many pastors who did not get up as Lopez continued whining and calling for Pastors to go to the front to show that they were going to give $5,000 or more.
He is a totally ridiculous man with a bad sense of humor, flat jokes, analogies and wise-cracks. “I was afraid all day long and I was trembling because I was told by the evil one ‘that no way are you going to collect the amount of offering that you want’.”
So why do they utilize a negative person with such a dull personality, treating Pastors like kids or herding them like a bunch of cattle?
It was disgusting, humiliating and embarrassing to see the Pastors have to get up and make a show and have the General Board see them do it.
As it is, the Pastors know that this money is not going where it is supposed to go.
They still give because they know that the General Board says... “It doesn’t matter how well we live, what we drive, how we spend, you have to give or you will be blackballed or even worse, removed from your church.”
This is a sin. No matter if you really believe you are giving to missions, they will do as they please with that money, and you can believe what you want.
Did anyone catch this, or was I the only one......
When Abel Aguilar yelled and screamed his introduction of the Pastor of a new ‘obra’ in Mississippi, the Pastor gave a heart-rending account of all he went through to establish his little church.
He and his wife found themselves without any food or necessities, any kind of help or support as they worked to build up a congregation.
They suffered without so much, and as he told us of all he and his wife had to do without, my mind went back to the huge “missions” collection that we carry out in our Conventions and the Flor Azul.
This brother continued to tell us of his great need, and that one day, in desperation because he was penniless and hungry, he stopped at a church of another denomination.
The Pastor was not there at the moment, and just as the Brother was about to leave, the Pastor showed up.
The Pastor gave him money and told the Brother he could use his sanctuary to hold services there until he could establish something for his own congregation.
As this Brother was letting us know how he started his little church, I have to wonder where the Apostolic missions money was.
Did it go to Aguilar’s son? Did it go to General Board expense accounts? Are these considered home missions?
Why did another denomination have to come to the rescue of an Apostolic new ‘obra’ when we collect so much money?
It was all I could do to contain myself.
Watching these people on the pulpit congratulate themselves on a new ‘obra’ when it was really the Pastor of another denomination who had the true missionary spirit and gave this Brother a helping hand.
...My question?
Would the Missions department of the AA have done that good deed for a poor soul from another denomination who is working for the Lord, or would it have gone to buy another luxury house or car for someone on the board?
Maybe the double salaries of the HGB (Board salary and Pastoral salary) can tithe toward the little people who work without any salary to build the work of God.
We have our priorities completely distorted.
If we like to copy sermons and techniques from other pastors, why don't we learn about true mission giving from other main stream denominations? They truly support their home/foreign missions until they are well established and self supporting.
I suggest that the new Apostolic ‘obra’ in Mississippi give its tithe of tithes to the other denomination who truly did the work of home missions.
May God have mercy on this Board
Abel Aguilar was looking for pity from the audience during the Convention.
He started talking about the horns of the bulls. Sounds to me like the HGB and Baldemar and Salomon are the bulls that are locking horns.
Abel Aguilar was so interested in his own ego and how his marriage is being wrecked by the statements on the internet blogs, that he could care less about how the people of the Assembly are feeling.
He was not preaching. Preaching is giving God’s Word for edification and instruction.
He kept talking about himself and his crisis in his marriage. It seems like this crisis situation happened a long time ago.
He was trying to divert this current crisis which is about the HGB, their misappropriation of funds, election fraud, high living and abuse of trust as he screeched and yelled making inhuman sounds.
It seems to me that he has no compassion on his audience. Maybe that’s why so many of our AA members have left.
Then he decided to make it an emotional crying spell of self pity. When did he ever have pity for other married couples?
Like the saying goes, what goes around comes around.
I wonder how many "obras" could be better supported with the $500,000 the General Board dropped on Jason Aguilar's new building in New York? Other men of God, with less known last names, have worked in Philadelphia, New York, all up and down the East Coast, but I wonder why God has not "blessed" them "through the GB" like "Abel's" son.
As far as the poor guy from Miss, he exhibits a classic example of GB partiality. Most people probably missed the true message of his testimony: despite the neglect and lack of support of the AA, he still started a church. No, most people went home thinking that if they want to be used of God in the AA that they must suffer and endure hardship. All the while the GB, bishops, and their offspring crisscross the nation, inviting each other to preach to each other, dropping “love” offerings in coat pockets of $500 suits, eating like pigs after church, telling each other how well they preached.
Where is the Flor-Azul money?
Where is the Home Missions money?
What percentage goes to administrative cost and percentage goes to the people?
What percentage of support goes to the offspring of GB’s family?
About Lopez:
"He is a totally ridiculous man with a bad sense of humor, flat jokes, analogies and wise-cracks. “I was afraid all day long and I was trembling because I was told by the evil one ‘that no way are you going to collect the amount of offering that you want’.”
Who is the evil one??? MALVERDE!!!
Well its almost End times again I wonder who wonder boy Lopez is going to have as speakers.
Most likely the whole GB. Like someone said will have their pockets lined with cash and gifts.
Then the dining room is turned a private dining room just for the chosen elite, while others are offered stale tacos and burritos for 3 times what they would cost elsewhere.
Interesting what went on at the convention. I do know that the place where they held the convention (the gaylord texan) is a incredibly nice place compared to the Long Beach and Anaheim venues. Also, by majority votes (what that means is anyones guess) - the convention will be at the same location for the next 2 years and the days of the actual convention will change. It will start on Friday (after thanksgiving) and go till Monday. The reasoning being they want people to have Thanksgiving with family. Does that work though?
Regarding Pastor Aguilar, was he specifically saying that his marriage was struggling "now" because of the alleged comments on the blogs? Or that his marriage had once struggled?
Ok, that was a nice story about the Mississippi obra.
How come the bro just didn't get a job? Follow Apostle Paul's example. I think God used that other pastor from another denomination to spiritually kick that AA pastor in the rear.
Aguilar is funny. On the street, he and his family are one of the Haughtiest people around. Their lifestyles are supported by working class latino families working in the fabrica, cleaning the hotels in Anaheim, working the llantera in Santa Ana. People who work honestly for their money.
Geeesh, I need some Tschunkga Blast..lol
Brother Aguilar is still a screamer? My goodness, I would think by now he would have spiritually matured and opted for more substance rather than emotionally charged adrenalin. I remember his style of preaching used to freak me out with all the screaming, moaning and groaning. He had a lot of roar but no bite.
Sad thing is, a lot of AA folk are more interested in the roar.
May be we can get all the GB and the QC on that spanish television program called Laura.
Oh I bet she could get to the truth....LOL
This makes some interesting reading.
www.aopc.org/OpPosting/CWealth/out/3419CD98.pdf
IN RESPONSE TO THIS MESSAGE:::Ok, that was a nice story about the Mississippi obra.
How come the bro just didn't get a job? Follow Apostle Paul's example. I think God used that other pastor from another denomination to spiritually kick that AA pastor in the rear.
>>response to the above comments:
Actually...the bro. stated that the pastor from the other denomination had actually been promoted of the Lord that morning that he would bless and individual. And so...it was confirmed with the Apostolic pastor....
>>additional response: Get your facts straight...not second hand..pass me down some chisme...before you state your comments....
correction:
Prompted of the Lord.
Van- Interesting comment regarding the missionary not getting a job. Unfortunately these men leave to these "national" missions with the understanding that the assembly will be there when they need them. Wrong. Because if they help one, then they have to help all. Great reason and logic, right?
I would have to agree with you in regards to finding something to fall on, especially when you take your small children with you. Great use of the example of the apostle Paul. There is something to be said of missions-motivated Christians who support themselves in secular work. They can serve the church without becoming a financial burden for those you are evangelizing.
"Actually...the bro. stated that the pastor from the other denomination had actually been promoted of the Lord that morning that he would bless and individual. And so...it was confirmed with the Apostolic pastor"
Yeah this other pastor was by the Lord Prompted cause the AA was to busy counting the dinero they have, and if they had cared a little, Edward probably would have sent a whopping $50.00 but then that would have meant Del Campo's Taco King lunch would have been put on the block.
So thank you for setting the record straight, while this new obra's pastor was hungry and down and out where was the AA.
Wanna Guess???
Lapping it up playing golf and their banquets.
Or with Abel in Africa while one of our is here with hunger while the GB takes their share out of the flor azul money and home missions
But it seems your one of them!!
Hows that for chisme?
Ay Shadow, why do you have to get all ghetto all of a sudden? You have a habit of bringing your street fighting skills into this blog when someone rubs you the wrong way, then you go off painting scenarios that are completely irrelevant to what we're talking about.
Just chill bro, learn how to accept people who disagree with you and most of all, learn to overcome those who criticize you. You'll be happier and wiser.
Jose Maria:
Umm, like ok. So I guess Apostle Paul was a mandilon? Living off the hermanos and not working for his money?
I mean come on now. Are we to throw away the instruction on WORK that we are given in Proverbs?
You can't tell me our missionaries are preaching and teaching 24/7.
-----------------------------------
Question:
Exactly how many pastor's widows do we have in the AA?
""""">>response to the above comments:
Actually...the bro. stated that the pastor from the other denomination had actually been promoted of the Lord that morning that he would bless and individual. And so...it was confirmed with the Apostolic pastor....""""
Hey Mr. Genious, if you were to read Deuteronomy, and perhaps the REST of the bible, the Lord "PROMPTS" us all to Charity, to be a blessing to OTHERS daily.
If someone needed to be suddenly "promted", then not only is he selfish, he's living OUT of the WORD of GOD.
Yeah Repus your right! I should chill, but I can't. I've seen to much stuff. Poor hermanos being abused and taken advantage of by bad pastors, and the bishops when informed about it just sweep it under the carpet, and make you feel like the one doing wrong.
But your right I do use my street fighting skills a little to much, so with that I guess I'll just go sit in corner and sing the Elvis Presley Song...."In the Getto"
Back in November 16 I wrote, "Working with many felons (in a Federal Prison), a very insecure, controlling man will do the following once he gets caught (only AFTER he gets caught).
1) Will begin to play the pobrecito card (I was a victim of circumstamces, etc., etc.).
2) Will cry publicly to obtain pity and people can feel sorry for him.
3) Will make a public apology for what happened, but NEVER really taking responsibility for his true actions.
4) Will blame others.
...Watch and see what happens at the convention!"
I think what we saw at the convention was proof that the GB is guilty as charged! The true repentannt does the following:
1) STOP crying publicly and begin making amends in public, with those he personally hurt.
2) Admit that what the accusers declared to be injustices, WERE indeed injustices.
3) Resign from any position, and control immediately (main reason) to demonstrate that he has the best interest of the organization in mind!
4) Confess before the organization, everything that they did was wrong!
Abraham Lincoln once said, "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power" POWER HAS MANIFESTED THE CONTENT OF YOUR HEARTS!!! Be men of honor and release what IS NOT rightfully yours? YOU the GB who read these blogs - REPENT - Or the rest of your sins WILL FIND YOU OUT (Deuteronomy 32:23
We are all missing the point.
Why are we sending a missionary to work at a secular job when the Bible clearly states that ‘el obrero es digno de su salario’?
That Pastor in Mississippi is the employee of the Apostolic Assembly and they collect money from us to help him.
The Apostle Paul did not have these kinds of resources. There was no Apostolic Assembly back home in Jerusalem collecting money to help him out. …At least collecting money on the pretext of helping home/foreign missions.
Mainline denominations prepare a young man to be a Pastor of an NCD, (New Church Development). He is supported financially and personally while doing so.
They do not throw a Pastor out to fend for himself, struggle to grow the church, buy and build the church, and when he finally has a nice little church going, the HGB swoops down demanding exorbitant amounts of money from him for tithes of tithes...
then the HGB takes it all away from him and leave him back on the street if any HGB’s son, grandson or best friends needs a church to pastor.
I think using broad stroked statements such as "We are all missing the point" is a bit over done. Most of the bloggers have been saying over and over that the Assembly is failing in to many ways to write down. We aren't missing the point.
When you say "Why are we sending a missionary to work at a secular job?" - Why? Because if you dont work, you dont eat. It should have been very clear that the Assembly was either not following through with their promises or had already fulfilled their "commitment" to this Pastors initial 6 months in the field. And besides, Mississippi is not central America or India, there should be no reason why you cant find a part-time job in the interim to get you on your feet while you do God's work. There is nothing wrong with that.
"el obrero es digno de su salario".
is found first in Luke 10:7 the repeated by Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:17-18. Jesus teaches his disciples to look at the gifts and help from brethren as justified payment for their work on behalf of the kingdom of God, not charity. We say amen to that.
While we are sure that the Pastor in Mississippi is trusting the Lord for the generosity of others, one needs to have a realistic picture of todays society and plan accordingly. The majority of Hispanic people, while they remain some of the most passionate people on this earth, are still in the lower levels of the social classes - therefore financially unable to support a Pastor, his family, rent, utilities when a new work is being established.
The Assembly should have been embarrassed to put this Pastor in this position. Period. But on the other side of the spectrum, this Pastor should become aware that when you go to the "home" mission fields you might have to pull a Paul and build some tents to fill the gaps. That's not lack of faith, its doing things in decent order and building some financial stability for your congregation. I pray that he finds the means to get through and build a tremendous work in Mississippi, but lets not be afraid to use some wisdom and commons sense in situations such as this.
The following are minutes from the court hearing held on 11/15/07:
HEARING RE: DETERMINATION OF VALIDITY OF ELECTION OR APPOINTME.
11/15/2007 - 8:30 AM DEPT. R12
BEN T KAYASHIMA PRESIDING.
CLERK: MARLENE GALINDO
COURT REPORTER JILL LANGLEY JILL LANGLEY
COURT ATTENDANT DENISE ANDRADE
-
APPEARANCES:
ATTORNEY JOHN STILLMAN PRESENT FOR PLAINTIFF/PETITIONER.
ATTORNEY JASON C DEMILLO PRESENT FOR DEFENDANT/RESPONDENT.
ATTORNEY MICHAEL P ACAIN PRESENT FOR APOLOSTIC ASSEMBLY OF THE FAITH.
-
PROCEEDINGS:
HEARING HELD.
THE COURT FINDS GOOD CAUSE TO SET MATTER FOR A LATER HEARING.
-
COURT ORDERS ANY ADDITIONAL MOVING PAPERS TO BE FILED AND SERVED BY 12/20/07 AT NOON, OPPOSITION
TO BE SERVED AND FILED BY 01/4/08 AT NOON AND REPLY TO BE FILED AND SERVED BY 1/11/08 AT NOON.
-
COURT INDICATES TO COUNSEL THEY MAY APPEAR BY CONFERENCE CALL BEFORE THE NEXT HEARING DATE IF
A SETTLEMENT IS REACHED.
-
HEARINGS:
CURRENT HEARING CONTINUED TO 01/17/08 AT 08:30 IN DEPARTMENT R12.
NOTICE WAIVED.
ACTION - COMPLETE
=== MINUTE ORDER END ===
HEARING RE: DETERMINATION OF VALIDITY OF ELECTION OR APPOINT ME.
That by itself tells me a lot.
A Mexican Missionary in Mississippi. Who'd a thunk it.
I know, I'm missing the point.
As far as Apostle Paul not having the resources that our missionaries have, Apostle Paul also didn't have the tools that we have today. Cell phones, cars, internet.
What? Missionaries can't work and be a testimony at work? Again, just because you mentioned verses about Ox's being worthy of their
salary, doesn't negate the instruction we are given in Proverbs.
The Law of the Lord is PERFECT.
I think the most important point is, where's the "flor Azul" money.
Whether he gets a job, full or part-time is irrelevant. He was sent by the AA, they should send him a monhly check. (enough to support himself and his family) He shouldn't have to get a hand out from another denominational church.
What's next? go on welfare?
My idea is for missionaries to be supported by a local church or a group of churches, that way the members know that the money they give is going to the missionary and not for admin. and perks for the GB.
The missionary in turn can send the churches or individual donating member a monthly, bi-monthly or quarterly report of his work. This way the givers know how he is doing.
By the way, I heard they are sending a missionary to Africa.
What are we doing in Africa? there's enough work here in the USA.
I hope it not Nigera, where all the scam e-mails come from.
If that is the case 2 vote Eddie should feel right at home.
Africa? What part? South Africa? I'm sure they won't be sending anyone to the tough areas.
Why doesn't our Missions department send a missionary to Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan? If there is such a desire to and a calling to the missionary field . . . Put their $ where their mouth is- better yet-- our money.
Really- we have so much work to be done HERE in the U.S. we really have no business sending more missionaries out until we take care of home first. The problem is, if they stay here, there'll be so many cat fights between the pastors as to whom the souls belong to.
If someone opens a church within a 5 mile radius, someone's bound to get worried about losing half of his flock-
We think that because we have 1 missionary in 1 country we're reading the four corners of the earth. There are states here in the U.S. that only have 1-3 pastors- and yet some states have an over abundance of pastors- with 30 members.
With all respect to "Old Timer", the job issue is not irrelevant to the discussion we were having.
Should he get a check every month? It would be beneficial to define the National vs. International missionaries.
First - the Assembly did not pick a name arbitrarily and decide "lets send him to Mississippi". Aspiring Pastors submit their names as candidates for churches and national missions churches are part of the available slots. I AGREE that the Assembly should be supporting missionaries - but should that be the case for US based churches? When one feels the call and burden to start a church within the States (whether its CA, TX or Mississippi), you are really on your own unless you get a group of financial supporters to back you up if your desire is to go at it "full-time". That is why the Job issue was raised - the Pastor volunteered for this. He could have asked for international missions work - were financial support is promised on a monthly level.
Of course all of this predicated on Flor Azul - and I agree with you - where has it been? Should it be considered for US based "missionaries"? What is the criteria?
lol I can't help but to laugh my booty off at that brother in Mississippi.
Broke, down on his luck, hungry, no church, no members, a starving family living in squaler, desparate, he turns to another denomination for help, some spare change for a memberless pastor down on his luck.
Meanwhile on the East Coast, Jason Aguilar gets a fat check of $500,000.00 from his Papi, Bishop Aguilar.
Then gets to pimp other pastors for monthly help to make his church building payment.
Am I seeing somewhat of an inequity here?
The least Jason Aguilar can do for the brother in Mississippi is send him a few dozen cases of Tschungka Blast and a couple of autographed cd's of his sister and the CT Choir.
lol freeking hilarious!
TULSA, Okla. - Richard Roberts told students at Oral Roberts University Wednesday that he did not want to resign as president of the scandal-plagued evangelical school, but he did so because God insisted.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal
Ok Sam, Eddie, Daniel its your turn
We will not allow those types comments in this blog.
Please refrain from those types of remarks.
Apostolic Voice
To former AA: I don't know the prosses as to how someone is selected to go start a church or new "Obra", but.
If they volunteer and the AA tells them where to go, they should at least make sure he has the essential life needs. I'm not rich, but the 10% of my annual tithes that my local church sends to HQ would support him for a month.
My whole point being. "WHERE'S THE MONEY?" (I think we all know)
If they can send 500k to new york. they can help this poor Brother.
Give me his address, and I will send him an offering derectly.
I don't know what part of Africa the missionary is going to. I will find out and post it as soon as I do.
I just read this and couldn't believe the connection (although it's OT). Could it be that the the Assembly suffers from too many rogue prophets?
Read the following:
Deuteronomy 18:20
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
I could think of ATLEAST 10 AA rogue prophets off the top of my head right now. Could it be that many members are spiritually dead because they are embracing a word that has been released in the name of "self"?
To apostolic old timer:
I understand your position on this. Thank you for allowing me to share mine. I believe we can both agree that there is a dis-balance in how these men are and are not supported.
I would direct you to the national missions website to get the address of the Mississippi Pastor, but as are most assembly websites, it is not updated with that info.
To chismosos
Africa? What part? South Africa?
Kenia: Tanzania
Bishop Duncan Ndegwa
Sister Margaret
It a fact
Thank you all for your comments regarding my blog about the Pastor in Mississippi. My reason for bringing this out is that I wanted to know what happens to all the money collected in the name of MISSIONS.
Got it… it goes to the East Coast. His focus is on that church building on the East Coast.
What threw me off was that Aguilar actually selected this Bro. from Mississippi as an example of what the Apostolic Assembly was doing RIGHT, and the MIRACLE the Bro. had received from the Lord by going to another denomination for help.
Where is Abel’s mentality in letting the Pastors know that the Bro. had to go to another denomination while our Pastors are having to give upwards of $5000.00 in the name of Missions?
Then the ex-Bishop from Union City demanded that 200 pastors come forward. Only about 130 of them went up. Many stayed in their seats because they knew what was going to be demanded of them.
Those who went up were instructed to give $5000.00 each. Being in front of the whole auditorium, they could not back out. Maybe they just like to hear their name announced from the podium. It’s their 30 seconds of fame.
This is coercion. It is sin, and it is EVIL. The worst part, I believe, is that it is done in the Name of God with an implied Judgment attached.
This shows how much the AA lacks of truly spirit filled leaders who have wisdom, knowledge and understanding. “My people perish for lack of knowledge…”
Postcript…
Was that the moment when Aguilar was presenting the Bro. from Mississippi that all the Bishops surrounded Sanchez because he got sick?
Maybe Sanchez got sick because he understood as I did, the mess that Abel Aguilar was about to make with the example of this Bro. going to another denomination for help.
For those of you who are pastors and read the blogs often and contribute your statements, hurrah for you.
But many of the pastors do not know how to get into the blog or do not speak English.
If you are a member of a church and your Pastor does not get into the blog—let him know what is being posted, inform him about what the AA members are feeling.
Maybe if your Pastor knows how the flock feels, he can act upon it and some changes can begin to happen because he is the one with the voice and vote.
My pastor is well informed, thanks to me, and he appreciates it very much.
Sometimes he totally agrees with what people think and are saying, other times he does not.
Regardless, he has an open mind and we have a good repoire.
Someone had posted earlier that Bishop Lopez was going to try to collect a large amount of money, but to set people up like that is very disheartening (and embarrassing, especially if you know you and/or your church cannot give $5000!). The saddest thing about this is that these kinds of offering showcases can and should be avoided. If the AA and its districts would use proper principles of event budgeting and planning, they wouldn't have to beg and prod like they do.
Members already give enough in their tithes, offerings and registration fees that they should not have to endure hour long offerings. We do it in the real world all the time! If people do not register and there is no money, therefore - cut your spending, proposals, perks - budgets! If it still looks like its going to be in the RED - then guess what - let everyone stay home for a year and retool it for the following year. What would you gain? A fiscally responsible and properly organized event that hits its target and provides the associated benefits the event was intending to provide.
So I was watching a show last night on TV about the BTK killer (has nothing to do with the AA).
I did find it interesting how they caught him. He would send them anonymous letters and they would respond cryptically publicly through the tv news and the newspaper. Eventually they (BTK and Police) would exchange information at certain drop off locations.
I'm going somewhere with this.
Here's how he got caught. They gave him a floppy disk and he was to put a message on it and drop it off at a drop off location. Unbeknownst to him, when he created the file, the Word applications captures the File Name, Author, if registered, and Company, which is usually the computer name.
So, I started thinking about the documents on AA.info and wondered if there was the same information was captured there.
So guess what, I did a little research. Here is what I found. I did not add the: Date Created, Modified or Accessed attributes of the file although that information is there.
Document Name: MenofIntegrity07u.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: BishopPresident7.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: TorresElections07Engl..doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: ALTFinal.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: ALTSpanish.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: ExtensiveInvestigation1.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: ExtensiveInvestigation1(3)Spanish.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: EXtensiveII[1][1].doc3rdfinal.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: ExtensiveIIfinalSpanish.doc
Author: Dad
Company: Glendale Community
Document Name: AA%20Pastoral%20Summary%20Letter.doc
Author: Saul L. Avila
Company: Christian Community Center
To me what this means is that the application captured the File Name, User who was logged in, and the name of the computer.
Take the first one for example:
Document Name: MenofIntegrity07u.doc (File Name)
Author: Dad (Bishop Tafoya)
Company: Glendale Community (Glendale Community Church)
That file was authored by Bishop Tafoya, on the Glendale Community Church or family computer.
Even if this file was emailed to someone else it would still keep these attributes because he created it unless manually changed.
So now, the questions becomes, to me at least, how did the AA.info webmaster get files that where created on Bishop Tafoya's computer? Where they created and emailed to that webmaster of AA.info? Did the AA.info webmaster have access to Bishop Tafoya's files. What relationship does Bishop Tafoy have with the AA.info webmaster? Obviously he is very active in these correspondence.
And I also think, why is Bishop Tafoya not part of the lawsuit if he is so obviously instigating or questioning the lack of validity, integrity and outcome of the elections.
We know that Saul Avila has signed his name to the lawsuit so there is no mis-understanding his position and/or intentions but again what is his relationship with the AA.info webmaster.
There are other files on the AA.info site that did not give any clear disinction as to who authored those documents.
I'm almost certain that those documents will now be altered or even removed or even this blog.
If the Glove don't fit, you must acquit.
Some concern has been expressed as to the author(s) of this website.
This site was created from a personal concern over the lack of information available to our Pastoral body. Apparently the Men of God listed on this site are being attacked/persecuted by the present leadership of our Apostolic Assembly.
To anyone concerned: This site was not created at the control, request, or encouragement of any Pastor, Bishop or General Board member. Please refrain from false accusations. The purpose of this site is to providing information so we can make INFORMED decisions.
The authors’ anonymity exists to protect the integrity of the site.
AA.Info
I knew it, the files have been changed to Reliance Ministries.
Clearly and obviously the files where changed to Reliance ministries.
I cannot believe the cover up by the people claiming there was a cover up.
By doing this they cleary have implicated themselves as to their association with the AA.info webmaster.
They got caught red handed. If they didn't then why would they need to change these attributes. Why would he be worried about this?
HaHa, Bishop Tafoya must be pouring over these blogs. I hope they know that Google caches websites and that will/can come up in court. If not, I saved the files. I had a suspicion....
Here is the dead give away. Look at the modified date for the files on after the other they are changed. Starting with:
Friday, November 30, 2007 2:32:02 PM
Again, why would these files that have been up on the website for months all of a sudden have to be changed?
Well Mr. Cochran, you are clever. The documents you refer to came from a different source. We assure you, they were not received from Bishop Tafoya.
As for a relationship between the webmaster(s) and Bishop Tafoya, outside of the blood of Jesus Christ, none exists. While we may not always see eye to eye with the Bishop, his nerve to stand up and request an investigation is to be respected.
As for Bro. Saul Avila, we have never had the pleasure of meeting. We do however look forward to the day we can shake his hand and thank him for stepping up at the right time.
So would be so kind to tell us all what source these files came from? Or at least from whom you recieved them? Because all ready know they were created on Bishop Tafoya's computer.
Also, one other question if you would.
Why did you/Bishop Tafoya/AA.info webmaster, feel compelled to change the names to Reliance instead of Glendale Community as there where originally recorded?
Why the cover up?!!
Why doesn't Bishop Tafoya stand up and be counted?
Why hide behind the AA.info website?
You have to admire Bro. Avila for making that STAND. I too look forward to meeting him and shaking his hand.
I don't know if I could say the same thing about Bishop Tafoya now.
No cover up intended. We’re just trying to provide anonymity to our contributors.
Bishop Tafoya, in our opinion, stood up to the HGB. By his action, I think we can agree, he has been counted among those concerned about the fraud. Bro. Art followed protocol. The HGB violated it. The group pursuing is taking it to the next level.
The AA.info website is just a place that information can be disbursed. If you ask your pastor, he probably didn’t know anything about election concerns until the site made the info available. The HGB has done their best to keep everything quiet. They even went as far as to send a misleading letter to every pastor.
How's the weather over there in EP?
Wow... It sure got quiet in here...
This anonymity concern goes back to the issue of security. It is extremely sad to know Pastors and Ministers in the AA are fearful of being persecuted by their efforts to seek truth and justice.
Please do not mis-understand me. I do think a sense of securty is warrented. Being the AA GB has the ability to reassign Pastors, Missionaries, and Ministers at their discretion, men of God must be careful what they say wont cause them or their family undue stress.
But (you knew it was coming), is it really the strongest thing to do??? I am not one for running from a fight, or back down from a confrontation, so I may be different.
With that said... my in-laws got a call from HQ today. As you know from reading my bio, my wife is Rebecca Brito, her parents being Efrain and Josie Brito. Please tell me the call has nothing to do with my opinions represented on this blog. Pretty please.
Well was it a friendly hello?
Or was it stop the in -law blogging?
But I wouldn't put it past them to try and pressure people to stop going against them.
Since VAn has stumbled on yet another suppose scam run from FOT.
The truth has started to come to the light and Malverde is running like a scared dog, and he will do anything to stop this blog.
I think the AA is on its desent down the hill, But hey know what after that we can only go up again.
Hopefully it will be without the the present HGB and the QC.
Maybe the best thing to do at this point is to separate our organization. Pastors and their congregations can decide who they want to go with.
The existing organization or a newly formed organization led by Baldemar/Solomon/Tafoya et al.
Maybe split along the lines of english and spanish speaking churches.
Maybe split along the lines of women should be cleaning vessels in the kitchen and women are vessels of God.
Maybe the split along the lines of should be California and the rest of the World.
Maybe the split should be between Pastors with mustaches and pastors without mustaches.
Or Sister with mustaches or sisters without mustaches....lol...sorry I better stop.
On a more serious note I for one would like see more oneness interdenominational fellowship.
What is the FOT scam?
No doubt the AA electoral scandal will have far reaching repercussions. With this type of leadership in place, the only ministers and pastors that will follow these men will be those that their existence is tied into pastoring an apostolic church. Young men that want a church will quietly prod along, hoping for a crumb from their master’s table. Yes, this is the future generation of leaders that we will be asked to follow. In this time when true Apostolic leadership is so desperately needed, we have seen the true colors of our current generation of leaders. So dependent on handouts and give-me-downs from the GB, this new generation of leaders cowers in the corner, hoping we don’t realize their impotence.
Do they really expect the most educated and informed generation of apostolics to follow them in “their condition?” Do they think this is what we want from an organized religious organization? Yes, we are an organized religious organization, with all the “symptoms of religiosity” that we’ve heard disdained for decades from the pulpits of those that have led us down this road. At this moment there is no sign or evidence that this is an Apostolic church full of power and authority. Our leaders couldn’t fight their way out of a Howard Johnson bathroom, no power, now authority, just apostolic in name. I used to believe that I would see a revival through our church that would “turn this world upside down,” but instead the GB has turned our church upside down. They’ve put the fate of Apostolic Assembly in the Faith Christ Jesus in the hands some judge in California.
Amen,amen and amen.
Adding to my comment above:
Leaders not owned” by or have their existence tied to coordinal relations with the GB will leave or go on to something else. Unfortunately, these men would be the better leaders. I couldn’t imagine those that actually stay and follow the GB would have any moral compass that deviated from the bunch that leads us now: their existence tied to leading or pasturing in the AA. For most of these guys that “have the calling” they couldn’t keep up their lifestyle with a H.S. education. So, the cycle continues. Leaders paralyzed by those that control the strings, purse strings that is.
To 95 theses:
Read Van's comment on "2007 General Convention Editorial"
Nov. 29, 2007 11.15 pm for more details
Most irritating about this convention is that it’s the same bunch of AA Bishops and their kids speaking, hosting, lunching, and prancing around the conventions halls with each other. All decked out in their DG suit, their wives dolled up in clothes that 99% of their members don’t wear because they can’t afford it because they’ve got pay tithes and give special offering to send these guys to the convention, so they can dine with all the other “called and commissioned” kids turned pastors. And who is paying for all of this? Us, that’s who’s paying for all of it. Yes, we pay for them to go preach to each other in these nice resorts. I thought are giving was supposed to support the work of God, not support conventions at resorts? And definitely not support all the same people for the last 10 years! Is this the work of God? Or is this what this current generation of leaders have been bred to belive the work of God is?
Thanks, Shadow.
I read the post and yes that is a bit weird. If you review the general financial report carefully, you will see that some of these churches, for thier membership size, may be skimming off the top and not sending the whole 10% Some of these churche's 10% looked a bit on the low side.
Mr. Bayne,
The trash talking got quieter, but I think those that are still posting have some sense and attempt to keep the discussion productive.
So, the GB made some calls to your family? Who was it? What did they say? A threat? An offer?
Mr. Bayne:
I tip my hat to you. You have a true Holy Spirt.
Hearing that someone from headcourters called some not suprise me.
I hope to tell us what they said or what they wanted.
your truly,
The INSIDER..
How do you feel going to church and mixing with your pastor, bishop, minister and friends and living a double life as a blogger. It is like having a split personality, and must be a very strange feeling.
I don’t feel that way so much because my friends, my pastor, and bishop, know that I write on the blog, who I am and they commend me on it. And they appreciate the history that I have of both the AA and the UPC. However, I cannot identify myself on the blog because I do not want to be hosed down or rocks thrown at me by anyone who has a differing opinion.
I’ll tell you a little scenario of what I remember as a child of an incident between the UPC & AA. It will let you see the reality of the history between the UPC and the AA. And that is has not been a good one.
As a child I remember my pastor commenting to a group of Hispanic people who needed to be baptized that because it was winter and very cold, it was not possible to go to the river for baptisms, (at that time, the place where the Hispanic group congregated did not have a baptistery), and he had asked the local Anglo Saxon UPC pastor who did have a church building and a batistry, if he would let them use the baptistery in order to baptize ten Hispanic brethren.
The pastor who supposedly was a good ‘friend’ of the Hispanic pastor stated that he was very sorry but that his members, being Anglo Saxon would never permit ‘Mexicans” to get into their baptistery for reasons that he could not explain.
My pastor told him, ‘but brother, we are supposed to be working together in building the kingdom of God, putting aside all prejudice against one another.’ But my pastor realized that the background of the PUC is Oakies and Arkies and they had severe insecurities in racial issues.
So the baptisms were held in the river in near freezing weather. My pastors and those new converts were protected by the Lord from any illness that might have befallen them.
If any Mexican would arrive at UPC church, they were told, ‘there is a ‘little Spanish church on the corner of A St. & B St, where you can go’
But as our Mexican brothers worked and labored to educate their children, and through financial aid and student loans, those children received exceptional educations, they became professionals, then the UPC opened up their doors and formed a Hispanic Ministries where many of the children of the Apostolic migrant workers ran to congregate and give their high salaried tithes and offerings to the UPC.
The UPC is not incorporated. Each pastor owns the property of his own church and if you really want to get upset, notice that most of the pastors of the UPC who retire, hand over the church to their sons or next of kin.
They have their own personal corporation within those pastoral families. I know many UPC pastors who have big ranches that bring them a vast amount of revenue.
If we really want to know why this is approved and condoned by the Mexican American, it is because the Mexican American, no matter how well educated, has been formed and conditioned to revere the “Patron” otherwise, according to the Oakies…the “massa”.
Do we want to keep on making UPC rich? Is there a difference in what they are doing as opposed to what our AA HGB is doing?
Yes, we are going to court, but the UPC has had its share of splits because of doctrinal issues and other ridiculous things such as women cutting their hair and the use of jewelry.
As time has evolved, some UPC women who could not find Anglo Saxon men in their denomination to marry them, have rushed over to the Apostolic Assembly to find ‘Mexican’ husbands.
What a joke on the pastor who would not let his baptistery be used by Mexicans and now they are coming to us looking for spouses. God can sure turn things around.
The UPC has formed a department specifically for Hispanics. But those Hispanic pastors will never attain the position of Bishop or General Superintendent. They are in servitude making taquitos and tamales in order to purchase churches which they (the Hispanic Pastors) CANNOT own. Those properties are owned by the Anglo church of the city where they pastor in.
I take issue with double standards. I just wish that our Apostolic Assembly members could see that although things for us are horrible right now, are they better anywhere else?
Someone please do an update on how the Hispanic fares in the UPC and also find out about the net worth of some UPC pastors beginning with
Kenneth Haney.
Don't run away. Let's fix things here, in the name of Jesus.
To between us:
You make some very interesting points, although I believe we need to be careful of making general assumptions regarding people and organizations. To use one example (the baptistery issue) as the basis of a a generalization or stereotype is using faulty logic. There is no doubt that problems abound in every organization, lets pray that the leaders can make the necessary changes in time.
95... The call was missed from the GB. I hope they call back as I would like to know what was wnated.
I have a feeling though that no one will call back, as the GB probably patrols this blog and now that I have mentioned it would not want to be outed for the call.
The... Thank you for the props. I pride myself in balance. If other people would also, everything would be so much nicer.
between us,
Don't carry a chip on your shoulder, the last time I checked it is God that provides our Blessing. Not white man, not the UPC, not Oprah, not anybody but God. The bible even dictates to not look for man for promotion.
We, hispanics, only limit ourselves! The creme always rises to the top no matter what color.
I think the UPC realized, like most other major corporations, that the latino population is the fastest growing minority and majority in some states. Their (our) purchasing power is enormous.
Dear Apostolic,
RE: Discussion from November 30, 2007 5:31 PM
We've been waiting through most of the weekend for you to provide us with the source of the documents on AA.info.
We appreciate you admitting that you did indeed change the files from Glendale Community to Reliance Ministries on Bishop Tafoya's behald and his relationship with you, the webmaster of AA.info.
Please advise...
JC
Johnnie Cochran,
Why should we care if Pastor Tofoya's computer played a role in the posting of the documents?
95 Theses,
There are a couple of reasons why we now should be concerned.
First let me tell you that at the onset of my interest in looking into the properties of the documents on AA.info, I didn't know what I was going to find. It was just out of curiousity.
But here are the reasons:
1. After writing about the findings of these Author and Computer Name attributes of the documents on AA.info, they where almost immediately changed. To me this shows that the webmaster is or is under the influence of the plaintiffs or Bishop Tafoya who, by the way, pushed the election irregularity matter with many letters, visits and requests to the HGB, decided it was not important enough for him to put his name on the lawsuit after all, which in my opinion he instigated.
There are two reasons why he would not put his name on the lawsuit. (1) It is political suicide in the AA to do so, or (2)he realizes that the lawsuit is without merit and does not want to risk his money, time and name. But it does look like he will let his compadres (Baldemar and Solomon) take the fall anyway.
2. I, as I am sure others are, am (was) still on the fence during this whole lawsuit debacle. I trying to look at this matter with an unbiased view.
These actions of trying to coverup the ownership and authors of the files and who is behind these websites caused me concern because it shows that someone is lying when it comes to the words on the website that it (the website) is not at the behest of any Pastor or Bishop.
From AA.info...
This site was not created at the control, request, or encouragement of any Pastor, Bishop or General Board member.
However the evidence shows that most of the documents are from certain specific individuals. In this case Bishop Tafoya. This reflects the fact that the AA.info website is infact created at the request and encouragement of Bishop Tafoya.
3.
Also from AA.info...
This site is merely a repository for letters written to and by the Apostolic Assembly. The host does not censor the content.
It is now obvious that the host is censoring and editing documents and only putting information on the website that the plaintiffs and Bishop Tafoya want you, the AA body, to see.
If they are going to lie about this website and try to cover up their role in these documents, what else are they lying about? What else are they trying to cover up?
Aren't they supposed to the ones asking for the committee of Men of Integrity? Is this the actions of Men of Integrity? or would they recuse themselves from said committee?
I remember Bishop Tafoya preaching that there is no such this as a white lie.
A lie is a lie is a lie!
A sin is a sin is a sin!
This severly impacts their credibility in this election matter.
Thank you for asking.
JC
JC,
Well, ok, Tofoya or someone close to him is controlling the website. Yes, the statements you pointed out are correct. I'll speak for myself; I'm not disillusioned and think that those that have brought the lawsuit and this issue to light are any better than the GB. If you read my post, you'll see that I'm critical of the AA leadership system that only breeds and perpetuates this type of leadership. Unless the new GB implements drastic, sweeping reforms, the AA will continue to inherently attract this type of inferior leadership. Anyways, thanks for pointing out the obvious – at least for, anyways.
As long as there is a stage, they'll be stage lovers to fill it.
As long as their is cash and opportunity for HS drop-outs to put on a suit and act like a leader, they'll always be some incompetent, poor soul that will attempt to lead and make a mess of things, leading more people away from Christ than to Him.
As long as there is a fashion show (convention), they'll always be some poor girl saved from the barrio turned GB leader's/pastor’s wife that will spend hundreds of dollars of tithe payer’s cash on bling purses and outfits that 99% of their congregants can't afford. And justify it as a "blessing from Jesus."
As long as there is no accountability, they’ll always be unaccountable bullies that will lead the AA.
As long as there is no transparency of financial records (at the GB and local church), they’ll be leaders that will spend the majority of their church income to support themselves and their families. I’m not saying that the men of God do not deserve a good salary. What I am saying is that their compensations should be propionate to the income of the church. And then that should be only to a certain point. The bottom line is that the majority of the church income should be spent on reaching the lost and evangelizing the world. Look at the % of the local church and GB expenses and you’ll that most of these church’s outgoing expense goes to supporting the pastor’s family in some way or another. And what’s troubling is that no one says anything when some of these leaders, not all of them, lifestyles don’t reflect good stewardship with God’s money.
The Pastor’s lifestyles should reflect the congregations that they lead.
to Mr/ms Johnnie Cochran
Are you the Pot? or the Kettle?
Or is Johnnie Cochran your real name?
Don't be a hypocrite. Stand up and be counted!
You are asking the people that allowed the information to be seen by pastors throughout the organization to disclose their sources?
That violates the idea of freedom of speech. Or are you a true apostolic that believes the only freedom you have is the one the HGB gives you? That's what got us into this mess!!!!
Have you sent anything in to AA.info? Was it posted? Was is edited? Censored?
Why don't you channel your energies to uncovering some real dirt:
What's happening with Sam V and the AA's finances/Real Estate?
What's happening with Daniel Sanchez and the house he's living in?
What's happening with Two vote Eddie and . . . the list is way too long to list here.
What's happening with Martin del Campo and his illiteracy?
And as Apostolic asked you - how's the weather in EP?
My Hypocritical Brother,
Why are you asking me to prove it?
You prove it! You keep on spewing about it.
I didn't comment ad nauseum about the AA.info web page at its ownership as you do with baseless allegations. I made a simple observation based on fact. I proved my point. Even Bro. Apostolic, the AA.info webmaster, acknowledged what I asserted...he even call me clever. (November 30, 2007 4:44 PM)
Nonetheless,you missed the point of my previous comments, I suggest you scroll up and re-read what I wrote.
I am not asking anyone to disclose anything to anyone. I made a simple finding of fact and relayed to you its implications.
You wrote:
You are asking the people that allowed the information to be seen by pastors throughout the organization to disclose their sources?
That violates the idea of freedom of speech.
You must have dropped out in the 5th grade because this has nothing to do with the violation of freedom of speech.
You see in the 6th grade we learned what the if someone does not want to incriminate themselves they "plead the fifth", the Fifth Amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves.
These men do not want to incriminate themselves.
Freedom of speech allows me to call you an idiot.
JC
"If it doen't make sense, you should find for the defense."
TO: Johnnie Cochran
RE: December 3, 2007 7:22 PM
You wrote:
'I am not asking anyone to disclose anything to anyone. I made a simple finding of fact and relayed to you its implications.'
Earlier you wrote:
'We've been waiting through most of the weekend for you to provide us with the source of the documents on AA.info.'
Forgive my sorry attempt to read English (or at least to interpret your postings).
Please expound on your previous post. I thought I was addressing the hypocrite that was asking for Apostolic to disclose a source. This would betray a confidence.
When a person pleads the fifth, they are not allowed to give any testimony at all.
You ought to watch that show 'Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader'. You might learn something.
My Hypocritical Brother,
I am not aware of the Mexican law nor the rule of law in Mexico for that matter but here in the United States, where we live, the Fifth Amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves under oath as a witness.
The Fifth Amendment protections apply wherever and whenever an individual is compelled to testify. People have asserted the right in grand jury or in congressional hearings under oath as a witness.
The point being is that they are allowed to testify but are protected from incriminating themselves during the testimony.
This should help you with at least points the next time you take your GED test.
Looking out for you,
JC
Well, mz Cochran, you still failed to answer the question.
You must be closely related to the Hypocritical General Board (HGB). Talking out of both sides of one's face and avoiding questions comes natural for you. So, let me put it in a language you may understand better:
why you say who sent the info to the info site? an' you say 'I not ask enybody to tell'
Did that help? How many times have you taken the GED? Are you trying to teach from your mistakes?
You live in the here in the US? that explains it. It's better for you to stay anonymous so the INS can't find and deport you.
Excuse the suggestion about the TV show. It might be a bit advanced for you. Try Sesame Street.
No Jesus in this Organization
Everything around us seems to indicate that this organization is one that has Jesus Christ as the center of this fellowship. That He Is the foundation of everything we do as an organization.
Our name is, the Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus, Inc. All signs indicate that this is an Organization, Fellowship or Church whichever you may prefer in which our foundation and basis is one common thing: Jesus.
“For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 3:11
My intent is too simply state: There is no Jesus in this organization.
We talk so much about having the truth, we look at others and we say, “Well they don’t have the full truth we have the full understanding of God and the whole gospel.” Yet here we find ourselves fighting amongst each other. Jesus is Love, Jesus brings peace, Jesus places in our heart a Joy that is inexpressible (1 Peter 1:18). As a member of this organization or a casual reader ask yourself, “Do we reflect these attributes?” “Do we have Jesus in our hearts? Or just contempt for our brother?
I have no idea what is going to happen during the following weeks. Maybe the Petitioners will win and we are able to change our organization for the better. Maybe they don’t and the General Board continues for the next 3 years trying to heal or to have a healthy assembly.
One thing I do know: “Everything rises and falls on leadership!” Our leadership reflects what our organization is really about. And as much as it hurts me to say this, it is simply the truth. We are corrupt to the core! How can we be healthy when elections are rigged for the benefit of a few? I thought we as Christians “Apostolics” were suppose to have the truth and to be servants just as Jesus taught His disciples (Luke 22:27, John 13:1-6).
Jesus said, “For who is greater, he who sits at the table or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as one who serves.” Luke 22:27
Jesus compared the mentality of the world against His teachings of being a servant. In this world, the one who sits at the table is the greatest but in the estimation of Jesus, the one serves is the greatest. Yet we have it all backwards, those of us who look out for our own interests are the ones with the mentality of the world.
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Phil. 2:3-4
Does this really reflect our organization? One founded on Jesus Christ and His teachings?
I don’t know if the General Board, Bishops, Pastors and all leaders of all faucets read these entries, but if you do I want to tell you something on behalf of all of the true Apostolic Assembly members.
“You have let us down. We are ashamed to be called members of the Apostolic Assembly, not because of our Doctrine, our worship style or even our dress code but because of our leadership who does not have Jesus in their hearts.”
You don’t care about us, you only care about yourselves. You abuse the power that was given to you for your own benefit. When Christians leaders follow God’s will and serve their people that my friend is called a theocracy. But when leaders rule for themselves it is merely a dictatorship.
And as a leader (Board member, Bishop, Pastor) if you are reading and it does not move you to have compassion for the church that Jesus Christ shed His blood for, something is seriously wrong with you.
I know my words are strong, but look at what has happened. Our church is not healthy. Just look at the blogs, look at the letters, youth, Pastors and families. The church is bleeding and it has been infected with corruption. Will a true man of God please stand up?
May God have mercy on us all!
I telling you now, something big is going to happen this week. Something very big....Those "Men of God" in California are corrupt. If they are monitoring these blogs like many say I want to tell them the following... "You only have interest in yourself and you dont care about the rest of the church. Yes you want to see progress and growth but only so that you can boast and look good in front of others... You may get away from the hands of the court and man but God will repay each of us according to our deeds."
Hey Hypocrite,
Consider it was a rhetorical question. It was only an obvious fact that Bishop Tafoya drafted these documents and forwarded them on to the AA.info webmaster.
He, the webmaster, already acknowledged that. And admitted changing the documents to protect Bishop Tafoya.
Get a clue.
JC
Hey OJ Simpson's Lawyer,
And what if Tafoya did? Whats your problem?
Johnnie Cocran faught the System and WON.
If the glove doen't fit, you must acquit.
Who cares who is the blogmaster and who released what to whom !
It doesnt matter the fact is that these GB members got caught and they will pay for the cover up.
I am not surprised so much at the cheating, fraud and lies because that is human nature to struggle with greed, power and lust.
What surprises me is that it took so long for this to come out into the light.
I am a third Generation Apostolic and have heard family and friends since I was a kid suspect election fraud and nepotism as well as favoritism in the appointment of positions.
My goodness it took a long time since the early seventies ive been hearing junk on Bishops , Elders and Pastors.
To those of you who are so confused about the sound system at the Convention, this is not a first that the sound was so bad.
Where have all of you been? During the time that Bro. Junior. Garcia was MOP President, he tried to present a sermon on Romans Chapter 1, on the Sodomites that appeared to be coming into the AA.
The poor man couldn’t preach and had to sit down because the sound was horribly distorted and we could not understand a word he was saying.
A. Mesa, was the sound man in all those conventions, and he would distort the microphones whenever he didn’t like who was singing or talking or preaching. I call that sabotage, and I think that is what happened at the recent convention.
I have been to many conventions, and if you have been to past conventions, you will also know what I’m talking about.
A word to any future sound man, keep track of all your equipment. Check your wiring after all has been installed. I saw it happen, trust me.
Hey, Van, you’re right on with your comments. Please continue. I look forward to your input.
Between Us,
Didnt you alraedy post the previous comment.
You seem to be repeating yourself.
Hey guys,
In thinking about it, Bishop Tafoya is the pot and the GB is the kettle.
The pot is calling the kettle black.
Thank you, good night.
JC
Do you guys remember when Bill Clinton's press secretary was holding a press conference during the Monica Lewinsky scandel.
All the questions asked to Mike McCurry were the same questions he had answered over and over.
He started responding to them by saying, I'll refer you to my previous comments.
Well the questions you are asking me over and over are in my previous comments. I'll refer you to my previous comments.
(I know some of you may be to young to remember this or maybe where old enough but didn't pay attention.)
If you have any new comments or questions, I will be happy to discuss.
Regards,
JC
Johnny Cochran,
What is happening tomorrow at the Headquarters? GB is beginning to play hard ball... They cant stand to lose so they will use their abuse their power like always...
Thank you and good night. I guess it must be past your bedtime. Ask mommy & daddy to let you stay up past 6:00 next time. Or do they give you Nyquil every evening to try calming you down?
So, in other words, your didn’t answer the questions before – and you’re not going to answer now.
Johnnie Cochran died 2 ½ years ago. Your excuse for posting died when you became a hypocrite. To you I surrender my moniker.
Feel free to stop calling yourself Johnnie Cochran and start using ‘Hypocrite’.
With your new title, feel free to become a part of the HGB.
If we have a Pot & a Kettle, then you must be the sartén.
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