Hermanos,
Would you so kind in welcoming Brother Josh Bayne to the podium as he provides an analysis of the 2007 General Convention at the Gaylord Resort in Fort Worth Texas. Brother Bayne was asked by us to provide some insight as to what he witnessed at the convention. In my discussion with him, I realized that he may be the most unbiased person to provide this type of on the scene reporting.
I really hate to have to say, please be respectful as he is a guest blogger on this site, but I feel I must. Let's show him what warm hearts we in the AAFCJ have. I always find in interesting how we are percieved outside looking in.
*****************************************
I must admit, I was a little keener to the unusual atmosphere of this years General Convention of the Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Jesus Christ. I had already done some reading and research concerning the Election Scandal of the General Convention of the previous year. During my research I found myself with a pretty objective attitude due to my lack of relationship with the Apostolic Assembly or its General Board. But as I walked through the doors of the Gaylord Texan, in Grapevine Texas, I was immediately confronted with an amazing sense of tension.
There were 2 types of people I met in Grapevine. The first was the person who was there for information and justice. This person really didn’t seem too interested in the convention itself, but rather in the business meetings and the way the assembly of believers would react to the accusations towards the General Board.
The second type of person was the vacationer. Although they were greatly blessed by the messages by people like Bro. Romo, and Bro. Aguilar, they were more there for a time away at a great resort. As a matter of fact, a good friend of mine who pastors in California said they only went to one service, as they really wanted to spend time with their family in such a “beautiful resort”.
There were plenty of rumors flying around the convention from the start. Rumors about Bishop Sanchez having a nervous breakdown. Rumors about a host of pastors who would be announcing their departure from the Apostolic Assembly and starting a new organization, or going independent. Rumors that the lawyers for the plaintiffs in the case brought against the Assembly and its General Board were present and accounted for. Although some of these rumors turned out to be true, the fact that rumors of this size had been started in the first place struck me as unusual.
I feel like everything I had witnessed so far I did so with a large amount of objectivity. I had refrained from casting stones at people. I had been very respectful of the call of God on the men’s lives who were leading this organization. But then something happened, I witnessed the offering portions of the convention, both of the Youth and General services. There wasn’t a single service I attended in which a large amount of time and effort was taken receiving the offering. Each time an offering was taken it was done so in a way that the person giving the offering was glorified for the amount they gave not the sacrifice in which was made by their giving. It truly was a sad situation. I know I may catch some heat for making this next statement, but here goes…
When will people learn that the way they treat their finances has just as much to do with them going to heaven as does being baptized in the name of Jesus? When will people learn that Jesus cares just as much about your check book as he does your witnessing abilities? The Bible has commanded us to be good stewards with the blessings, both monetary and non-monetary, he has given us. This commandment also is for the elders of the church. As a matter of fact, the offerings aren’t for the Pastors, preachers, and teachers. The tithe is, but not the offering. The offering is to carry on the work of the Lord, while the tithe is there to support the ministry and their families. I am completely confounded as to why so many Oneness Apostolic’s (UPC, PAW, IAFCJ, ALJC, AAFJC, etc.) can’t get this through their heads.
Consider this a prophetic word: When the Apostolic Church of the 21st Century turns from their money loving ways there will be an amazing Revival in the church, as well as an Abundant Harvest of new souls.
This is ultimately what I walked away with: Yes, there is probably some truth to the accusations of the plaintiffs, and yes there is probably some truth to the accusations by the defendants. But what is most true about the entire scandal is, this has everything to do with money and nothing to do with the souls of believers and the lost. Many members of the Apostolic Assembly have lost sight of what is really important.
Let me tell you what is NOT important (Here comes the heat again). Being Apostolic is not important. Walking around with your nose tilted in the air because you have taken on the title of Apostolic is so far from important it almost laughable. Jesus didn’t call you to be Apostolic.
Now for what IS important: Being a Christian. Being a Soul Winner. Being sure of your salvation. Being a Prayer Warrior. Being Sold out. Being ready for the rapture. Guess what hermanos y hermanas; None of this has anything to do with being Apostolic.
I dare you to call a Baptist church in your local town and ask them what they think of Apostolic’s. Once they get beyond the doctrinal differences they will start talking about “self-righteous attitudes”. They will tell you “they seem to be caught in the 19th Century”. “They seem to use coercion in getting new believers to come to Christ”. “Heavy Handed”, “Legalistic”, “They have Dictators as Pastors”, “They look like they fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.”. I have personally heard these comments from denominational pastors, preachers, and members (Even the last one).
Apostolics, its time to let go of “our” title, and put on the title that Christ gave us; “Beloved”.
As for the General Board and this years General Convention and Youth Conference, it was alright. Nothing to special. Lots of talk and no action. Lots of hype, but no follow through. How long will it be that a man or woman of God will finally say enough is enough and do something? The Apostolic church of yesterday is dying, the Apostolic church of Today is ill, and the Apostolic church of tomorrow won’t know what hit them.
Bro. Josh Bayne is a licensed minister and Professional Audio Engineer. He and his wife (Rebecca Brito-Bayne) have a 4 month old son named J. Michael. Josh and Rebecca are founders of MyMinistryFinder.com which links Apostolic and other denominational ministers to churches in need of their help. Consider it a monster.com for churches.
Wednesday, November 28, 2007
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They are not going to fired him, the political maneuver is to suspend him
alluding conflict of interest.
But in reality is the same.
More news coming soon.
Firing, suspend, tomAtoe, tomAHto, all the same thing.
This is not good at all. This does not bode well for the AA.
Conflict Schmonflict!!
Bro Torres had...strike that...
Bro Torres has the interest of souls in mind, he has the interest of Apostolic families in mind, he has the interest of the integrity of the Apostolic Assembly in mind.
Maybe this conflicted with the interest that the General Board has in mind. Which now looks like its their own personal interest.
I have alot more to say, but I don't want to write while I'm heated up.
Developing...
AV
Speak Apostolic Voice.
We are listening.
As of today is Bro. Torres Bishop?
At the "Air it Out" blog (http://thetruthatlast-justice.blogspot.com/), someone reported that the pastors stood up to the GB and kept voting for Torres. IS this true? Did the pastor override the GB's decision?
In Las Vegas an Apostolic women was murdered by an individual she let stay in her home. You can read the details on the Las Vegas NBC News Website. The church is raising money for the funeral expspenses and the kids.
Here is a link to the story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22390704/
Another article: http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=7537618&nav=menu107_2
If it's true that the GB tried to remove Torres, here's my take on the issue. The GB probally allowed Bro. Torres to become Bishop so they can come back later and try to use the his positions as leverage to ask him to stop backing the lawsuit. If this was there plan, these guys have a tremendous lack of any type of sense.
FYI:
Bishop Torres was suspended from his position. A pastor who was present yesterday evening at the meeting said many pastors cried others were saddened by the announcement. They could not believe what was happening. They were discontent with the decision made by the GB and not having an ground to base it on. The AA constitution was violated .The district secretary and treasurer were appointed by the President to overlook the district until further notice on the date of the re-election. December 28,2007 will be a day that will always be remembered by those who love and support Bishop Abel Torres and what he stands for.
This news is unbelievable. It's scary to know that these men are leading our church in such a careless manner. No heart or understanding on how the average Apostolic will take this type of news. To some it will insight anger and provoke nothing more than further disrespect for the AA leadership, damaging the image of our leaders in the eyes of the present generation and those to come. For others, many will succumb to doubt and wonder if the most "spiritual" and "holy men of God" are those that lead us. Other than the guts to bully local pastors and Bishops, the GB has exhibited no spiritual power or authority. These acts show nothing more that their utter lack of professionalism, and shows what they think of the average apostolic. If they think that they can make arbitrary decisions like in the instance of Bishop Torrres, then they have no respect for the intelligence of the Apostolic membership.
Again and again Sanchez is showing disregard and neglect to the pastors voices and votes.
Its official Daniel Sanchez is the worst president in the whole history of the Apostolic Assembly.Every time he uses that hymnbook shows you he is taking the church backwards not forward.
Agree, Daniel Sanchez is the Worst President of the AA. EVER! To go along with the WORST Administration, EVER!
He's the worst President becuase of where he has led the AA to this point. The manner in which he has handled this situation shows how you can take the cholo out of barrio, but you can't take the barrio out of the cholo." There is no sign that any of these men have apostolic biblical authority, but are just a bunch uneducated, wanna be CEOs that are running this organization into the ground.
Yesterday Dec 28 2007 the innocence of the AA was forever gone "'A Date Which Will Live in Infamy'"Quote. A just man was degraded and humiliated in front of his family,pastors, church and friends, for no valid reason at all.
¿Qué ha pasado? ¿Qué han hecho los líderes y Pastores?
Dejaron que la mesa directiva, Sánchez, Aguilar y Pacheco, trataran al Hermano Abel Torres, un siervo de Dios que traje la verdad, como un títere, un niño.
Hno. Torres fue debidamente electo. Aguilar y Pacheco NO fueron debidamente electos. Y ¿ellos pueden ir a Texas para hacer quitar un Obispo debidamente electo?
En la Asamblea estamos orando por el Hermano Torres. Nosotros no tenemos voz ni voto. Pero sabemos que Dios es poderoso para redimirlo de esta situación.
Ustedes los Pastores que tienen voto, acuerden que Dios ama la justicia y nos llama a nosotros que agüemos la justicia.
Estamos viendo que se esta repitiendo la historia de lo que hizo la mesa directiva con el Hermano Llorente; lo botaron y lo abandonaron y los Pastores quedaron mudos.
Que no venga el Pastor el domingo a predicarme a mí por mis pecados pequeños cuando mi Pastor no fue capas de hacer justicia y misericordia a uno de los suyos.
“Porque tanto el profeta como el sacerdote son impíos; aun en mi casa hallé su maldad, dice Jehová. Por tanto, su camino será como resbaladeros en oscuridad; serán empujados, y caerán en el; porque yo traeré mal sobre ellos en el año de su castigo, dice Jehová.” Jeremías 23:11-12.
Translation (rough):
What has happened? What have our leaders and Pastors done? They have allowed the GB, Sanchez, Aguilar and Pacheco to treat Bro. Abel Torres, a servant of God who brings the truth, as a rag doll, a child.
Bro. Torres was duly elected. Aguilar and Pacheco were not duly elected. Why can they go to Texas and remove a Bishop who was duly elected?
The Assembly is praying for Bro. Torres. We have no voice or vote, but we know that God is powerful and able to redeem this situation.
The Pastors have the power of the vote. They need to remember that God loves justice and He calls us to do justice also. (as His representatives).
We are seeing the repeat of history when the GB went to visit Bro. Llorente. They had decided to throw him out, and the Pastors all remained silent.
I just don’t want my Pastor to preach to me on Sunday about my small sins, when he did not do justice or have mercy to one of his own.
“Both prophet and priest are godless, even in my temple I find their wickedness, declares the Lord. Therefore their path will become slippery, they will be banished to darkness and there they will fall…” Jeremiah 23:11-12
GB you are now officially part of the Hall of Shame.
Happy New Year bloggers.
Its no wonder why Kash Sanchez, Daniel's Brother, Converted to Catholic.
Envy and Lust are running heavy in Apostolic HQ.
Lust for women? No. Lust for money and Power.
John 3:16 Where were you when the courageous Bishop Torres stood before the board and declared he would stand for justice? Where were you when all the blogs applauded him for being brave? You speak through your cowardness as someone who doesn't know any better. Did you get the guts to speak up when everyone is so busy getting ready for the New Year? For your information you will have to eat your words up. Just wait you'll be suprise. A little reminder on what John 3:16 says "For God so love the world..." I encourage you to start this New Year practicing the scripture you use on this blog.
Happy New Year! and God bless
John 3:16,
Are you serious? Calm? Waters settled? Just as the GB has exhibited in their careless manner of leadership, you lack the understanding of how this is truly impacting our Assembly. My concern is that the GB has surrounded themselves with "genius" advisors with your mentality. I wonder who these leaders consult with. If they surrounded themselves with men like you, then no wonder we’re in the predicament where in.
to john 3.16
Whoever you are john 3.16, you are a sad commentary for the AA! Your sad excuse for a commentary speaks volumes to the mentality of people like you on the GB. Speaking from someone who knows what went on that day, a fool like you has no idea what Sanchez's actions are going to cause. You are so blind you can't even see that rempving such a man from his position IS NOT ONLY going to cause irreparable consequences in the spiritual realm, but also legal problems against the defense of the AA. If Sanchez had TRUE advisors they would have adviced against such a move, because I know for a fact that the judge in this case is going to be very upset at the presidents actions. I wouldn't be surprised if a restraining order is placed against the GB from doing any further damage to themselves.
"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Proverbs 17:28
Of course the judge is going to be very upset at the presidents actions, brother Torres is the only witness among the 4 plaintiffs.
To John 3:16,
It is pretty evident that are a very foolish person by your blog! I hope that your are not a person of any kind of leadership in the AA, much less a minister or a pastor. God forbid! For your information I am an outsider looking in and what I see in the leadership of the AA is that I can see right thru them (every single one of them). Can you just imagine what there wives must see! I have only seen Sanchez one time in person and that was enough for me to figure out that he was not a righteous man. Sanchez has been a two-faced person for quite some time now it is time to give one up. Sanchez let me tell you it will be better once you do give it up! Don't be afraid!
Aguilar, now that's a different story he not only is two faced he is also arrogant, and self serving that is the reason his wife is wanting to get away from him. Honestly she should he needs a rude awakening in his life. The other option is for her to stick with him and just put up with embarrassments the rest of her life.
Now as for that little napoleon that runs around with them he ain't very tall but let me tell you my friend he is crooked! He needs to separate himself from all the cons and scammers and come straight or he needs to join them totally. I honestly believe he is hopeless!
Those are the three stooges that came to Midland to remove a righteous from doing God's work. I am sure that you would like to know how that meeting ended why don't you ask Sanchez, Aguilar, or Napo, see if they will come clean. I can assure you if you found out what went on in that meeting your opinion would be totally different.
HNY
To Trophyman:
Why don't you tell us what happen at the meeting.
From reading these blogs, everyone says that every administration has been corrupt. Some bloggers say that Baldemar saved Eddie Pacheco from going to prison by sending him to mission field. If this is true, then what right does Baldemar have in placing a lawsuit against the Assembly? What is worst is that Abel Torres has aligned himself with Baldemar and consenters that are immoral men? Recall some post talking about Ishmael Arellano having an illegimate daughter.
Maybe a better path for Abel Torres, since he is the only righteous leader, is to start his own organization. Another idea would be for him to stand up to anyone who is immoral including the former board members that are backing him in this lawsuit.
What I do not understand is how Abel Torres can be a righteous man and yet surround himself with previous board members that are evil who cry foul play when they are guilty of the samething. Maybe Abel Torres is being played and does not know it.
Wally
RUMOR has it that they are going to ask Baldemar to step down as pastor as well. Anyone heard anything on this??
I still think all the pastors should stage a coup and get these guys outta there!!
Whatever happened to Youth 4 Justice? All that hot air about protesting?
If the rumor is correct, then this is the epitome of the old saying "What goes around comes around" A few questions to everyone that views Brother Torres as the SAVIOUR of the AA, when Baldemar was President what kind of relationship did Abel Torres have with him? Since Abel Torres' mindset is to win souls, what was his stance on returning power to the local churches? It is the local churches that are out in the communities. Unfortunately, Torres seems to be fitting the mold of any up and comer who starts off with a good heart and good intentions, then he becomes evil. Maybe by aligning himself previous board members, he may not be starting off with good intentions. The only difference here is that he aligned himself with the side that is not in power.
In the manner that he spoke out with the election fraud, did he speak out against Baldemar when he was President? Did he ever rebuke Baldemar for what the blog say he did with Eddie Pacheco? If he did not, why is it that he has selective righteousness?
Maybe he is not aware of the bad things that Bro. Baldemar and previous board member (consenters of his lawsuit) have done according to the bloggers. What confounds me is that all these uneducated men have managed to hide their alledged evil behavior from the educated Abel Torres. Maybe Abel Torres is educated beyond his mental aptitude.
In truth, if Abel Torres is repulse by the Politics and Policies of the AA then maybe it is time for him to move on.
Wally
So by you line of reasoning Christ should have not associated with sinners either.
Maybe Baldemar has repented or has seen the error of his past ways.
Either way it doesnt matter. If Bishop Torres is standing up for what is right and Baldemar is backing him then what is right is right.
Once again wally showing his ignorance.
Please explain how one can be educated beyond their mental aptitude.
The human mind has the astonishing ability to learn even at an old age. Scientists have observed the brain making new connections and developing new cells (the physical, biological process of learning) well into the 90s.
Not only that but Baldemar is not the one that sent Pacheco to the mission field. Is was Manuel Vizcarra.This is a fact I did my homework.
To Enrique:
But Baldemar, being on the QC, disqualified Ramirez and no surprise to anyone, Baldemar continued as President once again From then on, the AA has gone down. If it wasn't for the new immigrants, our churches would be empty.
Quote from between us
Glad to see you give Baldemar the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you can apply your way of thinking to Eddie Pacheco in regards to Rogelio Garduno Alvarez attending his church.
I agree with you about me being ignorant but could you help get out my ignorant state by answering some questions about one of your previous posts?
Enrique wrote this 12/5/07 @ 3:33
Sanchez swindled a home away from a family that he promised them he would take care of their disabled child. Shafted the family shafted the kid and took the house.
"End Enrique's quote"
WHERE: Address of the house you are talking about ?
WHO: Who is this family you are talking about? Phone number and email addresses would be nice
WHEN: could you give me dates and times of when this happened?
Copies of an eviction notice would be nice?
WHAT: what were the terms of Sanchez agreement to "take care
of the family"
What did "Sanchez Say " were his reasons for what you say he did?
Did this family receive any government assistance for their disabled child? or were they completely dependent on Sanchez?
Enrique continued.....
Should I go on ?
He also cheated on his wife recently I think about 3 or 4 years ago with some chick from his church.
More questions for Enrique:
Who: who was this "Chick" he cheated with? Could you give up the Name?
Where did this happen?
When: Was it three year or four years? Could you please clear that up?
Enrique quote:
So is this who we want as President a dirty old man who is also very controlling and vindictive ?
End Enrique
I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but before I agree with you I need you to answer my valid questions.
Enrique continued.....
No wonder were in this mess too many men being appointed to positions and not being annointed by God.
End Enrique
According to Between us this whole mess started with Baldemar. I'm glad Baldemar repented, but if the blog is correct then the damage is done. Thank You Baldemar for the mess you have caused and the mess you continue to cause.
I apoolgize if I frustrate you by holding you accountable for your post, but maybe I am ignorant because I am getting my AA info from the bloggers like you.
Mike A./ Marc Payan/Eddie Pacheco/ Wally/ Isaac Gutierrez/
To all the people monitoring these blogs:
I have continued to ask questions about accusations against preachers such as Eddie Pacheco, Abel aguilar, Dan Ramirez, Nate Ochoa, but the accusers continue to evade my questions. I have asked repeatedly for names, court documents, letters or any credible evidence to substantiate their accusations. The AA.info website is nice because they are posting the documents and allowing the viewer to form their own opinions, but for some reason they have made it a point to say they do not endorse this blog. However, they say to use sound Apostolic Wisdom when reading the blogs. Now I know why, because the bloggers cannot answer simple valid questions.
Ha ha ha WOW !
And should you be provided with said proof on every misdeed and crooked move this man has made then what ?
You would only proceed to dismiss it one way or another and find some kind of justification for his actions.
Your not Sanchez himself are you ?
Or maybe your his nephew Mark Velez.
Either way it doesnt matter the truth always comes out in the end.
It is sad to see someone who really thinks Sanchez is innocent as a child.
Take the blinders off. Would there be a lawsuit and chatter about election irregularities if there wasnt any wrongdoing ?
I suppose they just made it all up just because.
What is it that you wnat to see ?
A sworn affedavit signed and notarized ?
Then what would you say that it was forged and the notary public was a family member of the plaintiff ?
Why bother ? What document do you want and what would you do with it ?
To Jose:
Glad to see you did your homework. My information is coming from this blog, but I do not know why blogs are being posted with incorrect information. Thank You for your diligent research.
Although you Viscarra sent Pacheco to the mission field, was Pacheco on the verge of going to prison. I hoping now you can answer the questions that have been asked of Van.
1)Could you please give me the names of the people he stole money from?
2) Since Pacheco was never indicted, was he investigated?
3) if yes, by what Law enforcement agency or was it by the attoney General?
4)Who are the names of people you know that gave him money?
To Enrique:
Enrique Quote
And should you be provided with said proof on every misdeed and crooked move this man has made then what ?
End Enrique
No, just the things you accuse him of. If what you are saying is true, I do not understand why you get upset when you are questioned.
If you do not like the heat stay out of the kitchen. Actually if you would answer my questions I would research it myself. Why aren't you answering my questions? Are you scared that you may be wrong? If you are wrong, just ask Bro. Sanchez for forgiveness.
As far as me being Brother Sanchez or Mark Velez, I could be them. Better yet, what if I am an investigator for a law office that represents AA board members. It is good to know that you still have not figured out who I am.
If you have an affidavit please disclose. It would be nice if you would answer my questions.
Are you Brother Abel Torres? This would explain why you are upset. I am sorry you got shut down, but you should not allow yourself to be manipulated by evil men, especially since you have more education than they do.
Are you Baldemar? and are you bitter against Sanchez because you are no longer in charge? Get over it and move on, hopefully you can still pastor or join the independence. Dios te bendiga hermano.
LOL
Daniel Sanchez/ Mark Velez / Daniel Solomon/ Baldemar Rodriguez/ Abel Torres or maybe Wally is Daniel Sarimiento from Colorado and currently in California.
To Wally,
First and foremost allow me to assure you of one thing Torres is not aligned with antone as you assume. If you can remember it was Torres that blew the whislte on this whole mess. Torres had two options he could sweep the whole mess under the carpet or he could speak up and stand for what is right. Knowing Torres I could easily understand him choosing the latter. You see Wally life isn't about what you are right this minute, it's about how you were brought up from day one. I can assure Torres was brought up with morals, unquestional ethics, integrity, etc. His father and mother didn't know how to do it any other way. They were very humble and they struggled incredibly but they never compromised their godly standards. That my friend is a fact and that is the ground that Torres walks on.
Now as far as Torres being the only righteous one in the AA, I never said that, you are the one saying that. For your information Torres isn't concerned about what position he has in the AA. I can also assure you that if called upon by the man upstairs to be a leader in whatever capacity he is more than qualified to take charge. He is just that type of man.
As for him leaving the AA, Wally don't even go there, the man knows only AA it's in his heart, soul, mind, talk, walk, his inhale is A and his exhale is A that's all Torres knows. Now if he did leave the AA can you just imagine, considering the outcry being so overwhelming.
Now at this juncture Wally let me tell you I have checked out your blogging and seriously you sound like wally from walmart sounding off the blue light specials. Relax my friend this thing isn't going anywhere soon! It didn't happen overnight and it isn't going away overnight. The man from upstairs is watching over everything and in due time he will put things in order. He definitely has the last word!
Now let me tell you about that meeting in Midland Sanchez came in like the bully he is and started something he couldn't finish. He came in to remove Torres and to elect a new person as bishop, to his dismay no one and I mean no one agreed with him even Aguilar and Pacheco couldn't believe what was going on. Wally with all due respect I guarantee that God's hand is over all of this and he will put things back in order in due time.
Wally question for you was there really ever a connection between Daniel Sanchez and Eric Clapton?
GN
The rivers of rough waters are being calmed by the handywork of god's devine counter insurgency by his messenger wally. May the lord bless the work of wally as he calms the waters and removes the venom of the vipers that belittle god's chosen guardians of the storehouse.
Trophyman,
I do give Torres credit for blowing the whistle on the election fraud; however, why would he want to stay in a organization where shady politics has been a way of life? According to you this did not happen overnight. Remember, all I am doing is quoting the bloggers. I have monitored the blogs and have posed questions based on what bloggers said. It sounds to me that you know Torres personally and I commend you for coming to his defense. It is refreshing to hear someone who knows the person they are talking about instead of knowing someone who knows someone. I believe your account of the events and I am sorry for the hurt it has caused you.
As far as Torres being consumed in all aspects of his life by the AA, Should not his loyalty be to God and not to the Apostolic Assembly. According to Josh Bayne, being Apostolic has nothing to do with being Christian. If there is a considerable outcry for him, surely these pastors and his congregation would be willing to follow him. Then he can structure his organization as God directs him or how he deems fit. I have no doubt that Brother Torres is up to any challenge that God has set before him.
I thought Kmart did blue light special not Wal-mart. Anyway, I am a greeter at Wal-Mart not an announcer. What do you do for a living, engrave trophies for yourself?
Why do you insult anyone that disagrees with you? is this because you are hurting? Let me ask you something do you think it is right for bloggers to call preachers homosexuals, crooks, and dirty old men? I ask questions because if the bloggers are going to use these words they should have proof to backup their words. Have you noticed that no one who makes accusations can defend their remarks. Something for you to consider.
“Wally question for you was there really ever a connection between Daniel Sanchez and Eric Clapton?”
Who cares!
Wally
To John 3:16
Thank you, it is amazing the power that accountability has.
Take Care
Wally
To Trophyman:
You say that Abel torres is not aligned with anyone, but his name is one of three plantiffs on the lawsuit against the AA. The other two are Daniel Solomon and Baldemar Rodriguez. This means he has aligned himself with the plantiffs and all consenters.
Wally/insurgent of the lord
PROCEEDINGS:
HEARING HELD.
THE COURT FINDS GOOD CAUSE TO SET MATTER FOR A LATER HEARING.
Wally please research this very carefully! In 1981 Eddie pacheco was associated with Bernice Salcido, exwife of the late Joey Salcido. She was indited in Maricopa County, Arizona for a pyramid car fraud. Eddie pacheco WAS investigated by the FBI, however, he was never indited because the people he supposedly sold cars to would not come forward to testify against him. If you are friends with Sanchez, Valverde, Aguilar, Maffey, Espinoza, and/or Prado, all of them can confirm this FBI investigation because the AA was also questioned. Or better yet, you can call the late Joey Salcido's brother, Chucky Salcido in Arizona and he can confirm everything I wrote for you. How do I know this information you will ask? Let me spare you your sarcasm. I was a very close frind of the late Joey Salcido. And one of the reasons for his divorce was the encarceration of his wife and the involvement she had in the fraud. And by the way, Viscarra, the president of the AA back then, did send Pacheco to the mission field in Chile to take the heat off. If you don't believe me just ask any of the Marrufo or Almaraz family members, because Pacheco took over for Marrufo. One more bit of information for you, if you post me your e-mail I can send you the name of a sister you can contact, and she will be more than happy to tell you how much she and her husband personally paid Pacheco for a car he never delivered, and the money WAS NEVER RETURNED!
My brother, I agree with you that some of the name calling on these blogs are not Christian and should never be posted. However you are guilty of the same! Did yyou not said the following - Quote "Why can't you understand that you ignorant wuss? If you are going to talk trash you need to support your arguement. Put up or shut your Van-gina lips.
December 24, 2007 5:54 PM
Calling somebody "Van-guna lips" What are you trying to insinuate. An educated, Christ like person would NEVER use such language. You lost me there and many others. Listen, the reason men like Torres stick around inspite of the crooked politics, is because the only way to cause some change in the organization is to fight the system. Running and leaving would never accomplish anything. And by the way, you're not holding anybody accountable by your line of questioning. If you have been in the AA for more than 25 years like I have, you know without a shadow of a doubt that most of these accusations are true. However, nobody needs to convince me of what I have witnessed on my own.
And one last thing, your last blog you signed off with "Wally/insurgent of the lord" that is very presumptious on your part, because an insurgent of the Lord would never assume that reponsibility unless the LORD himself called him. Be careful my friend, for "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom." Proverbs 13:10 and "When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom." Proverbs 11:2.
AMEN APWC,
Wally you just got schooled son !
I bet your not going to get the e-mail phone number or information offered you and check the source.
Your just full of hot air and thats why most of us just blow you off and mess with you.
APWC is right you lost all credibility when you were bashing Van and using foul language in earlier posts.
So now your just someone to have fun and mess with on here.
Its kind of fun to see you get all bent out of shape. You must be a relative of the GB or one of the GB members.
You want proof ? And who the heck are you to want proof ?
It is so sad that you are in such denial.
You cant see what is so clear to the rest of us.
And your not fooling anyone John 3:16 is your other profile and you are giving yourself words of encouragement.
Looks like the Plaintiffs filed an AMENDED COMPLAINT on 12/13/07. Anyone know what was amended??
APWC,
Very interesting, I feel bad for Joey Salido. Is there anyway you can send me a copy of that FBI Investigation report? This should be public information. Do you know why the so called witnesses never came forward and testified? Do the witnesses have processed checks verifying Edward Pacheco depositing them into his account? Maybe Joey's brother can be a guest blogger like Joshua Bayne was?
Based on your quote
If you have been in the AA for more than 25 years like I have, you know without a shadow of a doubt that most of these accusations are true. However, nobody needs to convince me of what I have witnessed on my own.
End of quote
If you had witnessed this, then you should of stepped forward and testified against Pacheco. What excuse do you have for not doing the right thing?
Here goes a question to the Almaraz and Maruffo families, is it true that Eddie Pacheco was sent to Chile because the FBI was investigating him? Can anyone of you produce the FBI report?
As far as giving my email address, I would prefer that all communication take place on the blog. However, I would like for this person to come forward so that I can ask questions. Since the talk about Pacheco started here it needs to continue here. Since everyone on the blog is anonymous, I prefer to question everything. If what you are saying is true, then there should be no problem with scrutiny. Anyway, we need to disclose all information to the all viewers so they can make an informed judgement against Pacheco. As you should know, this blog is available for eveyone to view and Eddie Pacheco deserves a fair representation.
As far as my quote, I do not deny it. I admit it was done in poor taste. I came down to the level of some of the bloggers. That is why I posted this blog
To Enrique and Van:
Wally has realized that he has been having too much fun on this blog. I decided to remove anything that is R rated and to my surprise that waa most of my blogs. While I will attempt to keep it to a psuedo intellectual level, it will be hard because my son Van pulls out the worst in me (haha).
I hope there are no hard feelings and I found it entertaining going back and forth with you two, especially Van. I hope you two have a happy New Year and look forward to blogging with you two in the future. Since I am not quick to forming opinions, I will still continue to drill for proof.
You two have a happy new Year and knock off that Kwanza talk mijo.
Take Care
Wally
December 27, 2007 10:00 PM
This is me acknowledging my wrong; however, these low class attacks did not start with me. Bloggers have called Dan Ramirez and Lee
Stonekings Homosexuals. Enrique accused Daniel Sanchez of having an affair and being a dirty old man. Abel Aguilar is accused of having an affair. victor O. Prado was called a sham. Nate Ochoa is accused of laundering money and Eddie Pacheco is accused of being a crook. While I attacked the alias of someone in bad taste, real names have been bashed and YOU HAVE NOT STOOD FOR WHAT IS RIGHT. MY brother this is far worst than any of my attacks. My brother where is your righteous indignation? Oh I forgot, you only came against me because you perceive me to be on the other side.
As far as being educated, I have never made a claim to that. According to Enrique and his profound dictionary skills, Wally is one that is regarded as stupid. As far as my a prestige career, I work for Kinkos fulltime and part time as a greeter at Wal Mart. Besides working so much, I attend La Puente Bible School and I am in management training at the coffee bean.
Prior to my poor taste in language, was I on the verge of winning you over to the side of the HGB? Ah man, Daniel Sanchez warned me about that. Please forgive me honorable wise president for not using sound Apostolic wisdom that has been modeled on this blog.
While you may disagree with my ability of holding the Anti HGB bloggers accountable because you are an anti HGB, I wonder how the Pro HGB people feel? Can you elaborate on this John 3:16? By the way I like your poetic form of communication. Remember one puts a thousand to flight two will put ten thousand to flight. Let us continue to mark those who cause division in the church (aka most bloggers on this blogspot)
The Apostle exhorts the church of Corinth to settle their disputes in house. Is not Abel Torres wise? then why go to court and expose the dirty laundry of your fellowship to the public? The church would be better off with a split before a trial rather than a split after the trial. No matter what happens nothing good is going to come out of this lawsuit. This surprises me that Abel Torres can't figure this one out. I hope I am wrong but After everything settles the AA will never be healthy again.
The title of insurgent of the lord was done in sarcasm. Since you have been monitoring my blogs, I am surprised that you did not figure this one out. That is something that John 3:16 called me and I was joking. Please forgive me if my self appointed title offended you.
In my opinion you are upset because I have question you guys on the blog.
God Bless
Wally/Marc Velez/Mark Payan/ Eddie Pacheco/ Daniel S.and Daniel S./
To Enrique:
To Enrique:
But Baldemar, being on the QC, disqualified Ramirez and no surprise to anyone, Baldemar continued as President once again From then on, the AA has gone down. If it wasn't for the new immigrants, our churches would be empty.
Quote from between us
Glad to see you give Baldemar the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you can apply your way of thinking to Eddie Pacheco in regards to Rogelio Garduno Alvarez attending his church.
I agree with you about me being ignorant but could you help get out my ignorant state by answering some questions about one of your previous posts?
Enrique wrote this 12/5/07 @ 3:33
Sanchez swindled a home away from a family that he promised them he would take care of their disabled child. Shafted the family shafted the kid and took the house.
"End Enrique's quote"
WHERE: Address of the house you are talking about ?
WHO: Who is this family you are talking about? Phone number and email addresses would be nice
WHEN: could you give me dates and times of when this happened?
Copies of an eviction notice would be nice?
WHAT: what were the terms of Sanchez agreement to "take care
of the family"
What did "Sanchez Say " were his reasons for what you say he did?
Did this family receive any government assistance for their disabled child? or were they completely dependent on Sanchez?
Enrique continued.....
Should I go on ?
He also cheated on his wife recently I think about 3 or 4 years ago with some chick from his church.
More questions for Enrique:
Who: who was this "Chick" he cheated with? Could you give up the Name?
Where did this happen?
When: Was it three year or four years? Could you please clear that up?
Enrique quote:
Ohhhhhhhh now you just got schooled. You still can't answer these questions.
Since I am full of hot air, why is it you keep responding to me and you still fail to answer the above questions? I am glad to see we have fun with each other, because you are pretty funny yourself (haha).
Do think I am John 3:16 because you have more than one alias? Are you Apostolic voice as well Enrique?
Wally
Dear Wally,
Thank you for responding to my blog. I would like to reveal to you first of all that APWC means "A Pastor Who Cares." Yes I am a pastor who monitors this blog like many others. Now I said that to say this. And let me attempt to say it without sarcasm, unlike many of your blogs, because eventhough you claim to apologize for your words the spirit of your blogs is mean and sarcastic.
You said, Quote "If you had witnessed this, then you should of stepped forward and testified against Pacheco. What excuse do you have for not doing the right thing?" How do you know I didn't. Just because nothing was done in the AA DOES NOT MEAN that myself and others did not speak out. My brother I am a firm believer in doing what is truth first rather than what is right. Because the right thing is sometimes objective, meaning what is right for you, might not be necessary what is right for me. Thus these blogs. The key is to do what is truth!
Now, because I have personally dealt with most of the previous and present board members when it came to church, District, and administrative issues, I can personally tell you what I have personally witnessed and gone through with some of these men. One thing I can tell you on my part is that there have been several times when I was told by GB members to look the other way and say nothing. But because at the end I will be accountable to God not to men, I did speak out and received retaliation for standing on the side of truth. Was I disrispectful in my speaking out, ofcourse NOT! However, I was still reprimanded for voicing my opinion.
Listen, IF YOU ARE SERIOUS about being just and righteouss, give me your e-mail address and I will personally e-mail you my phone number so you can call me. I will be more than happy to share information, and documentation that proves many of the injustices some of these men have committed.
See, the only reason I'm willing to speak out, is because as a pastor I have counseled with many of the casualties of such politics. That is what the ultimate reason for all this is, for Satan to acquire more souls.
As far as your quote, "The Apostle exhorts the church of Corinth to settle their disputes in house. Is not Abel Torres wise? then why go to court and expose the dirty laundry of your fellowship to the public?" If you read "Letter from God" in the "Apstolicassembly.info" website you will discover that God tried to give the president a chance to clean house, but he ignored it. As a matter of fact I personally know the evangelists (there are two) who prophetically spoke to the president to clean house but he ignored the Lord's intervention!
You also quote, "The church would be better off with a split before a trial rather than a split after the trial." The church IS NEVER BETTER OFF with ANY SPLIT! You also said, Qoute "No matter what happens nothing good is going to come out of this lawsuit. This surprises me that Abel Torres can't figure this one out. I hope I am wrong but After everything settles the AA will never be healthy again." I'm sorry my friend BUT THE ASSEMBLY WAS NEVER HEALTHY TO BEGIN WITH! This is the result of many years of tolerating and hidding corruption and unrighteousness.
Please give me you e-mail and I will be more than happy to give you my phone number so we can dialog in a Christian and worthy way. NOw if I sound like I'm rebuking you, that is not my intention, but please change the spirit of your blogs, because any Christian who has the Holy Spirit can discern the unwarranted sarcasm and meaness in your bloggs.
To other bloggers. A Christian forum is NO PLACE for mean, dirty, unrispectful comments. If you feel a person is a crook, then express it in a matter that is conducive to discussion. As far as Eddie Pacheco deserving a fair representation, my bother there are too many brethren out there that will come and testify against him if they were called. This is not hear say, but truth. I know many of them. Again give me your e-mail and I will contact you with names.
Finally I'm not trying to convince you or anybody to agree with my views, all I care is that no more souls get hurt and fall by the wayside. Because politics, not Satan, has killed more church members than anything else.
To John 3.16
Please.....no comment!
To APWC:
Thank you for your response. As I have monitored these blogs, I have sensed mean spiritedness in the dialogue. If I have come across as sarcastic, then please forgive me. My intent was not to be biased against either side but to find out truth about my leaders. If I have come across as defensive, it is only because I felt that I had to defend my spiritual leaders. As I have grown up in the AA, I have always revered Abel Aguilar, Victor Prado, Daniel Sanchez, Eddie Pacheco and Sam Valverde as men of God. So for me to hear things that are being said about them, I have been bothered by them. I believe you in what you say, but maybe Wally is speaking out because he does not like the things that are being said about people he has held in high regards. So forgive me if I do not accept the accusation against these men without further question. Believe or not I have more respect for you exposing yourself then I do for Enrique and Van. Van called Lee Stoneking and Dan Ramirez homosexuals and I am the only one who checked that. Enrique called Daniel Sanchez a dirty old man and I am the only one who checked that. As I have apologize and owned up to my inappropiate language Enrique and Van never took responsibility for their innapropiate language. I appreciate your advice, but I feel that you being a pastor should have been fed up a long time ago. Please do not take this as sarcasm for I am only expressing my feelings. Have you provided this same advice to Van. Anyway, I would like to talk to you so my email address is darntough@gmail.com.
Since we have agreed to have further dialogue please advise all other bloggers not to respond.
Wally
Dear Wally,
I can sense a different spirit in you blogs now, thank you for your response. I agree with you, some of these comments were out of order, and it is OK to put certain people in check. But please understand this, some not all comments are true. The ones that I personally know are false, are not worth the time, nor the effort. However, some comments are true, and some of these brothers are speaking out in anger because friends and loved ones have been hurt, and some even destroyed by some of these leaders. See the problem my brother is that we have been taught to follow leaders without question. But this is not biblical! As a matter of fact the Lord Jesus Himself decalred, "...Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” Mattew 15:12-14
We are to always respect leadership, however, we are given the opportunity in the body of Christ to appeal to our authorities decisions. Unfortunatelly, it has been my personal experience that when you try to appeal or just disagree agreably, you are ostraziced, reprimanded, and told to shup up or else.
Yes this does happen in leadership circles in the AA. I will go as far as to tell you that I once saw a former BM throw a Bible at a pastor for not baking down on his opinion.
Either way, I will e-mail you my phone number, but please understand that I will check who you are first because we pastors HAVE been told that retaliation will come from HQ if we speak out against any BM. Not that it will stop me from talking with you, but one must be wise in knowing when to speak, because "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Proverbs 17:28.
Thank you
As I am in agreement with you that we should not follow blindly. As this has been the principle behind my questioning. God Bless You
Wally
Wally,
You are still blind and following the blind.
Go ahead and be a blind sheep if you like.
I have seen too much and lived too long to follow any MAN blindly.
Maybe when I was a primary or junior did I have them in such high esteem.
Now I understand that they are just men and nothing more.
You are not checking anyone for your information.
Like I said who do you think you are that I should convince you that these comments and accusations are true ?
Do you seriuosly think that people just make up things for fun ?
I cant speak to what Van said about Dan Ramirez being Gay I dont even know who the man is but I know that what he says about Pachueco is true.
And time will show you the truth about your beloved Daniel Sanchez. He is NO angel believe me.
the never question your pastor mentality has brought more harm to the association then anything..They just want you to be obedient and never question the men of God.. The mentality to only pray for theme still in effect.. so they get away with miss use of funds and practices that only focus on getting more money and ultimate life styles.. IF something is going to happen it must happen from us type of mentality..The bible did not hide the sins of the leadership and would deal with revelion, but now the association is a system that you must be higher up then me in order to say something . Where will the assembly end up from this point on? the only difference is now that the net is pressent, people question the shaddy practices of bishops. i wish the board members would be put each other through a true trial to throw away any program that does not produce souls or decipleship. Ask why our churches are not trully growing like they are suppost to. I hate that mentality that they think the churches are not growing because people are wearing pants and putting on make up when in fact Christ has being left out of the picture.
AMEN Brother Ed
Very well said
1/17/2008 8:30 AM DEPT. R12 HEARING RE: DETERMINATION OF VALIDITY OF ELECTION OR APPOINTME. - Minutes
01/03/2008 STIP TO CONTINUE W/ FILE RECEIVED AND FORWARDED TO R12 FOR (REVIEW/SIGNATURE) Not Applicable
01/03/2008 FILING FEE PAID BY SAUL AVILA, BALDEMAR RODRIGUEZ, DANIEL SALOMON, ABEL TORRES FOR CONTINUANCE
To Enrique:
I guess you are entitled to your opinion about me not holding you accountable, but I have received emails that disagree with you.
Email Quote:
Wally, I hope that you do not mind that I would send you an email on your personal address but I really think that Apostolic News Blog is simply becoming a BIG joke
Another Quote:
You are about the only one that has made any sense of all of this mess. I am sorry that all those others (excuse me for saying this but) all of them other viejas that are posting such stupidity and cannot accept anyone else's opinion.
Email quote from a plantiff:
I placed a request with the author of the blog to close it down. I told him/her that I had purposed from the beginning to take the high road. I do not agree with all the character assassination that is going on.
You ask who am I that you should produce proof. The answer is simply no one. However, according to the emails I am receiving it is good to know that they feel I am doing a good job holding you accountable. My demand for proof is simply for all people monitoring the blog. Obviously you are bitter against the assembly, but I plee with you to chill on the character assassinations.
Enrique what is your purpose of your post? Are you trying to address issues or are you trying to settle a vendetta? If it is the latter, then this blog is not the place for it.
Even if you hate me, you and all blogger that say things and cannot prove it need to listen to the plantiff. The Plantiff know that this blog has taken the low road and is not helping their cause.
Another thing, the plantiff does not have any bitterness against the General Board and still considers them to be friends. Much different opinion from what many of the bloggers are saying. According to the plantiff, everyone (GB and Plantiffs) is hurting. Consider this when you attack Sanchez or GB members, that you are hurting the plantiffs with your comments because they have no desire to destroy the President and the GB.
Wally
After receiving my email, I believe that people on both sides are
Wally,
So now all of a sudden you are the voice of reason and a peace maker ?
WOW ! Go back and read some of your previous posts.
And anyone can post up quotes and say that they are e-mails in support of ones views.
These blogs are just visible accounts of private conversations that we all have had for years.
Why is everyone so surprised at all these comments all of a sudden.
Like if you all had never heard these criticisms before ?
Please
Voice of reason? No
Voice of accountability? Maybe
Once you have a private conversation on the WORLD WIDE WEB it is no longer PRIVATE.
Actually, I have heard criticism about the AA methods, but I have never heard anything about the current leaders being crooks, adulters, and many other things. Especially, not in front of the whole world.
You are right about anyone posting quotes to support their views, but also anyone can post untruthful things about people they do not like.
What do you think about the email quote from the plantiff? Does anyone have email quotes from plantiffs that think the blog is the high road?
Enique do not bother responding. If an email quote from a plantiff cannot convince to stop speaking foolishly, then I will continue to question so that you are discredit to my constituents. My constituents simply view you as bitter person.
Wally
Wally,
You say I am speaking foolishly ?
That is ironic coming from the man that used words like vangina.
So your all spiritual and on the high road now ?
Get off your holier than though kick and quit trying to bring people to account when your the one who needs to check yourself.
And last I checked this was a free country so disagree if you may but quit hating.
I am free to type as I please.
The million Dollar question: After the event of the lawsuit, will things stay the same? More of the same? What a shame! The AA needs a revamping of structure organization. Power back to the local church pastors @ members where the real work is done. True accountability of funds monies cash offerings etc..This control and power that the GB has is insanity, maybe we should organize like the UPC give control back to the local church. Let's pray things just do not stay the same.
Although, organizing in a different manner will be beneficial. Organizing the AA like the UPC also has it's own problems. There is actually more politics in their structure than in ours.
While most of our Politics will be towards the GB or trying to sway them a certain way, Politics exists towards the Pastors in the UPC. Politics is everywhere, because man is present.
Better organization and a better structure although needed wont change things because man will always corrupt things with their passions... Only God can change this!
Basically and sad to say, we dont have enough of God in our lives or at the least in the AA for this matter.
If we did, there would not be a lawsuit and there would not be any fraud.
Esteemed President, I may be totally mistaken, but I state without any intent to offend you or anyone else that the vote of the Pastors in favor of the proposals for changes in the convention is a statement of sorts that they want us to resolve this matter peacefully, with the fear of God, and with the greatest brevity possible. Beyond the shadow of a doubt, I know that no one desires that anyone get hurt. Unfortunately many have already been greatly hurt. To continue in the path in we are now in, would only serve to cause more hurt. How unfortunate that this matter has been handled more by people on the “blogs” than by us. Some of them have no love for our organization whatsoever. They have taken over because the people that should handle this matter have failed to do so. It is unfortunate that several members of the General Board and their families have suffered greatly from personal attacks by people who have no love for the Church. Several of the plaintiffs have suffered as well. Some of them have been marginalized. They have been disrespected through letters and some have been denied speaking engagements. Some may have been denied the opportunity to hold office. When will it stop?
Abel Torres
Quote from Apostolicassembly.info
Since its formation in 1945, the UPCI has been one of the fastest growing denominations in North America, growing from 617 member churches in 1946, to 4,358 churches in 2007 (which includes 4099 autonomous and 258 daughter works),.
the UPCI in North America has 9,085 ministers.
the UPCI in North America reports a Sunday School attendance circa 650,000.
total worldwide constituency, including North America, is listed at 4,036,945.
PAUL: I believe though there is and will be politics in every organization the most evident problem to the AA right now is POWER POWER POWER. The above statistics should be ours at the very least. To ignore this is catastrophic. The UPC while they have there own problems and every organization does, pastors own their own churches and have the ability to not renew their license and not have their churches taken away if they disagree with leadership. That would go a very very long way within our ranks. I agree with you, some of our men do not have God in their lives, but some do! Giving hope to this situation still. We are praying for God to move in this somehow.
La Paz
Has anyone read the new letter from Abel Torres to President Sanchez dated 12/22/07 in the apostolicassembly.info website? If so what is you take on it, please elaborate!
Where to start? The letter to sanchez that torres wrote is very insightful in that you can see his (torres')character or spirit.
I believe he genuinely loves the AA organization and wants something good to happen.
I can't help seeing this as some kind of revolution w/love of sorts. Because he is pleading to sanchez to do what is right. I sincerly believe torres has the right attitude/character/idea in reviewing the AA constitution and rethinking it in a way that benefits the body of Christ.
So he has taken this road, rather than just causing division and going independent or whatever. (What i mean is he wants change and if it involves having to use the courts then so be it. Anyone can see that this was the only way!! The GB would not be convinced by any other means!! It is obvious because there has been many a times for this to settle out of court, with no prevail.
These letters of torres are proof of that.
Anyone who reads this letter can see torres is very genuine and wants peace. In my opinion the GB could not be anymore stubborn or selfish. Could I be wrong about their selfishness? Yes I beleive so, because up to this point the GB has not said anything publically, yet I realize they scream out different things to different people in their silence. In other words people make their own conclusions in the GB's silence.
Now that Bro. Torres has been removed/suspended I don't know which? It seems like there is no other alternative but to settle this in the courts. I hope to see torres back where he wants to be after this is over, in that he is the only voice of reason so far.
La Paz.
APWC
You are a pastor what is your opinion of the letter. In which state are you pastoring.
Wally,
Please don't get all serious on us. You're much more entertaining when you thought that you were keeping us all in check, and referred to yourself in the third person.
But truthfully, if someone believes what has been written about the GB based solely on what was written here in the blog then these people would more than likely believe anything, and is part of the same bunch of people that would “say anything”, both irrelevant in any discussion.
I speak for myself when I say that I don’t believe everything that is stated in this blog. Furthermore, I don’t take the time to defend these men against such frivolous accusations since they’ve placed themselves in positions of power where certain aspects of their lives should be fair game in a public forum. For those that want to lead the AA they must live a life above reproach. Even without these “wild accusations”, for some us, the GB still made mistakes and has yet to exhibit any type of leadership that would reaffirm my confidence in their ability to lead. In fact, if the AA had any semblance of leadership the lawsuit would be quelled, and we would have moved on by now. But no, they’ve chosen to drag the AA through the mud with this matter. Yes, since the GB has the power and the responsibility, they have “chosen” this situation. I know some blame the dissenters/consenters for the lawsuit because they hired the lawyers and filed the suit. But really, when it comes down to it the GB should have exhibited their apostolic spiritual power and authority and handled the situation.
I don’t respect the current GB because of where they have led this organization as of today. Hopefully, one of the GB gets blessed and all shook up in the Holy Ghost this week and realizes that if they turned to God, He may actually have a way to resolve this issue.
Wally,
Who are your constituents?
Are you a GB?
Was this a "Freudian slip?"
Or are you preparing to run for office?
95 Thesis:
Very very well said. I have monitored these blogs off and on and it is very plain that some blogs are junk and some are not.
In a professional setting, ones private life may (and i stress may) have nothing to do with the profession, but if you are preaching the Word (as the GB does)and in a place of church executive leadership your life will be held to a standard of high morality and your decisions will have a ripple effect in the spiritual realm.
Unfortunately as you said "all shook up in the Holy Ghost" I've never seen it. They're corpses on the platform until they get the mic then they're resurrected from the dead and want to rain fire from heaven! haha
Wally,
Please don't get all serious on us. You're much more entertaining when you thought that you were keeping us all in check, and referred to yourself in the third person.
End Quote>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thank you for my work is done. I am glad to see that I could put everyone in check with a little entertainment. Since you do not believe everything on this blog, do you agree with one of my constituents that this blog has become a big joke?
Am I a GB or running for office? HaHaHaHaHa (My stomach is hurting from so much laughter)
Yes I am Daniel Sanchez / Eddie Pacheco / Victor Prado / Espinoza / Maffey / Abel Torres / Daniel Solomon / Baldemar Rodriguez. Why are you so interested in who I am? Is it due to me keeping the bloggers in check?
I have a feeling that you have a couple of code names on this blog.
Anyway, you are soooo right when you say that the leaders private life is open to criticism. Believe me if Pacheco is a crook, I would take on a second alias, like you have, and constantly criticize him. However, nothing solid has come thru since I posted my email address.
With all these accusations against GB members, I have never defended them but simply ask the accusors to produce proof. I did this by asking when, why, how, where, who questions. This does not take alot of time to ask, but it has done a good job identifying frivolous accusations. Actually, my constituents who are people that believe everything on this blog, thanked me for saving them from establishing bitter thoughts against the GB. To me this is confirmation that I have done a good job in my line of questioning. For being intellectually inferior (which I do not deny), many bloggers have looked bad to the viewers.
Well got to go, here at Wal-mart we only have a fifteen minute break.
Wally
Constituents? You only started commenting when the topic of Dr.Dan Phd, a Flor Azuler came up.
I guess we all know who your constituents are.
to Hello who asked the questions, "APWC You are a pastor what is your opinion of the letter. In which state are you pastoring."
First of all my personal opinion is one that I have held for several years. You see, I trully and honestly DO NOT understand the presidents move to remove A. Torres from his position. If you look at the time line, brother Torres wrote the letter on Dec. 22, 2007 and president Sanchez removed Torres on Dec. 28, 2007. Now timing wise this move by the president appears to be retaliation for writting his letter. especially when one paragraph states, "One of the options available to the General Board to bring an end to this situation is retaliation. All of those men of God who are complaining could be disposed of and destroyed and their families along with them. Another option would be to resort to the use of duress and intimidation. As a result, some may end up distancing themselves from the lawsuit, but more than likely the lawsuit will continue its course and we may see no end to the damage that will befall all of us. Most of the alternatives will cause great hurt and damage, but the best option is to find a way to come together and work towards a solution that is plausible for all: One that God would approve and would subsequently prove to be of great benefit for the Church."
It seems that the president didn't even consider or respect bishop Torres concerns because it seems that immediatly after he received the letter he chose retaliation. I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!
Do I agree with lawsuit NO! Do I think this one was necessary YES!! Please get out of the mentality that this is not God's will. OFCOURSE IT'S NOT. It is also NOT God's will that leaders cheat, consort, and perform injustices. But men still chose to do it, Why? Because it is God's permissive will. What we need to understand is that if we do not take care of problems in house, the Lord can use Satan himself to promote God's better end! Why do you think God used the devil and his pawns to crucify the Lord! IT WAS GOD'S WILL!
My intent IS NOT to bash the GB,m however, most of them are trully operating outside of God's will. Some with action, and other with inaction. Now, the GB has been slaped with a restraining order stopping them from removing anybody else, go figure. And from what I hear in pastoral circles, the judge in this case is upset at the AA because od what Sanchez did. And yes, for your info. the AA lawyears, and even Aguilar and Pacheco, were not in agreement with what the president did. Remember, the clue to a mans heart is NOT how he acts, but how he reacts. This is why the Bible says, "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men:"
Most leader's stop here, but read the rest, "whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.” 1 Peter 2:12-17
to Wally,
My brother, I have a couple of questions for you:
1) The e-mail you provided "darntough@gmail.com" how long have you had it?
2) Were you at the last convention in Texas, and were you there when the president rebuked the plaintiff in prayer?
3) Have you also read "Letter From God" in the apostolicassembly.info website?
I also failed to mention to you that besides pastoring, I also have a BSEE in Engineering, and am finding some very interesting things about the origin of your e-mail address, so please be patient before I contact you. God Bless you.
apwc
Now, the GB has been slapped with a restraining order stopping them from removing anybody else,
Its that a fact?
La Paz de Cristo. Is that what you mean? This is a very solemn greeting of the Apostolic Assembly, and should be treated as such.
You are right that Bro. Abel Torres was pleading to Sanchez for peace to no avail.
I guess you do not know Daniel Sanchez. He is an extremely selfish, self centered, insecure and stubborn individual.
When he was a Pastor in Tucson, Arizona, he was so stubborn that he never paid his tithes of tithes to the District of Arizona. He was totally insubordinate to his Bishop in Arizona.
He then moved to Solana Beach here in CA and began to behave as a pseudo psycho-analyst and psychologist to his congregation when in reality he has the equivalent of a sixth grade education.
His next move was to Anaheim, CA as Pastor where he took over the property of those elderly members of his church.
He controlled the Los Angeles district harshly, heartlessly with no Christian compassion whatsoever.
He was elected President because the QC felt that because he was over 70, he would be a man of experience and wisdom and would protect the Assembly.
We have all found out that what he has is a street wise, worldly mind rather than Spiritual wisdom, understanding and knowledge.
When there were issues to be addressed to him by the Pastors concerning church members, Sanchez would always be on the side of the one who was going to do the most harm to the Pastor or the District.
Sanchez does not work for peace. He works for discord, division and destruction. These three things are his agenda. They are also on the agenda of Baldemar and Salomon. They are three of a kind. No compassion or empathy.
Sanchez came from a very dysfunctional family. Baldemar was a hard-core Mariachi, and Dan Salomon had a lot of domestic issues in his home as a child.
Do not expect compassion from these men. The more you plead with them and behave as a Christian, the more you feed their distorted egos and the crueler they are to you.
Remember,remember,remember.... you are not dealing with God fearing men, you are dealing with hard core cruel men on their own agenda.
Bro Abel Torres is an educated, God fearing man. He was brought up by God fearing parents, co-founders of the work in west Texas. He father, Valentin Torres was a great man of God. Abel has never been a cholo. He is not street smart.
If you have been in the AA long enough, you know that these 8 Board members are transparent, their flaws are readily seen and felt.
But they know that we feed their egos by the homage we pay them, how we revere them, and the excessive way we acknowledge them in the Conventions as we ignore our humble brethren.
Do not tell me not to touch these ‘men of God.’ They do not behave in a way that becomes the title. If they did, we would not be having this conversation. “By their fruits, you will know them.”
As we continue to write on this blog, it becomes more appparent who the HGB really is.
NOW, what do we do about it? We have no voice or vote. We don't want to leave because we love the AA and have been taught that this is the way we get to heaven.
Wally,
The 95 Theses tells you, No I don’t think that this blog os a joke, but maybe we can agree that some “blogger’s comments” are jokes.
The 95 Theses believes this blog is real conduit of information to people that would have not known the truth about the election scandal and some other facts that have emerged. Beyond the frivolous accusations and vulgar language, your comments included, "the 95 Theses bets that most GB and influential Apostolic leaders are praying that someone they did wrong does not find their way onto this blog, or the members of some poor church that they’re leading into the ground finally finds a way to communicate their frustration. The 95 Theses don’t think this is a joke or necessarily a bad thing.
Hopefully, such public forums like this may raise the AA leadership bar just an itsy, bitsy, little bit.
To APWC:
How long have I had my email? Why do you want to know that?
anyway, not sure.
If I was at the Convention in Texas, I would rather not say because like you I am trying to stay anonymous.
As far as the letter from God, I read it a while back, why do you ask?
Are the Plantiff that sent me the email?
Wally
The framework of the Apostolic Assembly collapsed many many years ago. This catastrophe is mainly attributed to the fact that the Apostolic Assembly has been built solely on inspiration. The Apostolic Assembly has dogmatized most views and ideas derrived by inspiration and it is these views and ideas that have failed the test of time and scripture. To try to fix the elections would be like trying to cure a cold with tissue. Tissue doesn't cure a cold, it only helps manage the symptoms of a sickness.
The election scandal is only a symptom of a broken and misguided system. In order to fix this system, the Assembly needs to rethink their theology, their ideology, sociology and all other relevant "ologies". Will this happen? Probably not.
I have very little hope for the AA. And although my hope rests in God, unless the Assembly leaders submit themselves to God with sincerity, then God cannot maximize his power in the restructuring process of the AA. The AA will continue to rest on a crippled framework "unless the LORD builds the house...".
Repus
Knowitall:
Thanks for your response, la paz means just that. Reverence it how you see fit. I am at least a third gen Apostolic my grand parents from the Mex.AA
You are right I do not know Sanchez and by the sounds of it would not like to meet him.
What I do know is that GB's for a long time have acted out in a similiar manner, having Pastors ripped out of churches out of GB's own pleasure. I myself have felt the reprocussion of these acts and have personal friends to this day years years later who have not really ever been the same.
I tell you that I get a terrible feeling in my stomach when I hear things like you mentioned about these GB's my gut tells me your right more so about sanchez than the others.
So if you are right about Baldemar and Salomon what is their agenda? What outcome do you see from the lawsuit?
I've heard that Torres was never elected bishop of Tex. but was appointed by the GB, that the Pastors did not want him as Bishop.
Can anybody confirm?
Do not get me wrong, I get a good feeling about Torres, but if that is true why would he accept?
Knowitall speak as you want I fail to see where you get the impression
that you may not. We will all be judged in the end.
La Paz.
So
To La Paz
The credibility of your source is very much in question! In my neck of the woods they are basically called liars. FYI at the district convention in Midland after the first vote for Bishop, Sanchez called Torres over and told that he was considering disqualifying him, but that God had shown him that he shouldn't do it. When the second and final vote for bishop took place and Torres had recieved 100% of the votes (100% means all the the votes FYI)Sanchez came up to Torres and told him "these confirms what God had shown me"
My question to anyone do you think God impressed upon Sanchez to suspend Torres? Who is shifty or two faced in this case, God or Sanchez? I think we know the answer!
GN
La Paz, Salud....
I have talked about this Board problem on the other blogs, but is seems that they are not concerned.
I know your background though I don’t know you, because I have also been brought up when the Iglesia Apostolica and the Apostolic Assembly were together. It was truly jubilant.
This history I know well. The old timers boards DID have open elections where the votes were counted in front of everybody up until about 1967, however, there was still a lot of strife and political envy.
The previous old timers, except for a couple that I won’t name, were not so much into the money issue, or becoming rich, to the extreme of lavish homes and cars, time shares and membership in golf courses. They just wanted a comfortable, modest life.
In the 1980’s, this all turned around. They began to live as the wealthy; expensive suites in hotels and expensive homes. It became about power, control and greed.
It is not wrong to live comfortable and to prosper, but it is not right to exploit the flock.
The old time board members would stop and consider the source of where their salaries were coming from.
They considered the means of the members, what they did for a living, and the old time Board members would adjust their lives accordingly and mingle with the flock, communicating with them in kindness and christian love.
Now, we do not even speak to each other. We go to the conventions with our noses held high and a holier-than-thou attitude, anger and hatred being our source.
To sum it up, the curse we inherited comes from this:
We lost our vision and our mission. We forgot about souls, we forgot about having baptisms, and we forgot about our worship music and opted for cultural music which does not edify, doesn’t have a message and if nothing else, is redundant.
Bottom line here- there are many issues, but it seems like the one that stands out is ‘the love of money.’
If a new board is elected after this trial, and they ‘would humble themselves and pray and depart from their evil ways, of strife, envy, jealousy, self righteousness, shunning and unforgiveness, becoming rich by exploiting others, and then seek God’s face, He will forgive and heal their souls, their families, and their land......’
Then we can find our true purpose that God has forordained for His people, and we will know the Joy of the Lord.
But all this sounds like we have reached heaven, it seems impossible.
Trophyman:
Just as I thought, though thanks for clearing that up. What is harder for me to comprehend is that Sanchez would be able to decifer the voice of God at all!! If that is what it really was.
La Paz.
Between us: Hello..
AMEN AMEN AMEN! Your experience with the Assemblies Apostolic sounds something of the good ole days. Unfortunately my Mother would have to tell me of those days, God rest her soul.
It is sad to say that it does sound somewhat like heaven in that we may not see it here. There will have to be a total restructuring of the organization from the bottom up and a renewing of vision from the Lord to his children. We also need to be students of the Word, educating our children in theology. (And not at "la puente bible school") Why can't our leaders have degrees in theology? Have we lost our love for the Word?
Sam is not an innocent bystander in all of this. He has the constitutional and moral responsibility to stop Sanchez. Where were you when Sanchez carnage Torres? You are to blame too.
La Paz....
We are so in agreement.
But, the need is not so much theological education as such. I do know that, at least in the last 10 years, many of our clergy have gone to CBAN, Logos, Vanguard, and many other schools.
However, most of these men do not have real academic foundation, even to the completion of high school. Therefore, they do not have a love for learning-they are not readers, especially of the WORD of GOD.
If by chance they go on to graduate and post graduate studies and get a degree in theology, they do not apply it.
If they have a heart for ministry and want to share the Word, they are shunned by our leaders.
I know of several right now who do have those degrees from accredited schools, but they pose a threat, (real or imagined) to the Board, therefore, they remain unused.
Knowledge can come by many means. Our old timers knew the Word without a degree. They read it and assimilated it and brought it forth. Today you can go on-line and find a well developed out-line for a sermon on whatever you want.
I am going to ask you 3 questions that I believe no clergy in the Apostolic Assembly can answer on the spur of the moment.(1) Why didn’t the Jews accept the Virginal Birth of Jesus? (2) What happened to the first wife of Moses? (3) Who were her ancestors?
I know these are simple questions, and someone will go look it up. My point is that at any given moment, our clergy cannot relay the Word of God with knowledge and understanding.
We, as parents have to teach our children to know the Scriptures and understand our doctrine.
The Jews have Hebrew school, the Catholics have catechism, the Muslims schools are not even secular.
Our church education is just a series of poorly explained stories, and ‘bad Sunday School memories’ where we were scolded, pinched, made to feel bad.
Above all, we need to learn to love to search the Scriptures, and then we have to live the Word, showing love, compassion, mercy, forgiveness.
If we can begin through honest reconciliation and restoration, we have a foundation to move forward on.
But the Board has to go there: set aside grandiose opinons of themselves and come honestly to the table.
So does anyone know what happened over the weekend concerning Baldemar ?
I thought there was supposed to be a visit to his church by The GB to remove him ?
Between Us:
AMEN! AMEN! AND AMEN!
You are absolutely correct. I remember being labeled a "backslider" simply because I went to college. Or as they say, "a student of Egypt".
Most of the leadership are dropouts in secular schools but went on to achieve Phd. Status at La Puente Bible School and Vanguard.
Like you said, Jew have Hebrew School, Catholics have Catechism.
What do we Apostolics have? We have duplications of Rick Warren, TD Jakes, G12, coupled with Tomos I, Tomos II.
I remember what Sanchez' days when he was being a prophet when it was popular when Richard Heard was around. Those predictions of WW3 with the Soviet Union didn't quite come through. Let alone all the
Y2K Predictions.
Thats right !
Wasnt the world supposed to end on Y2K ?
The brother was telling everyone to stock up on canned goods and water.
I have to take issue with what our esteemed and dearly beloved his Bishopness Abel Torres, aka the Apostolic Messiah said in his letter to Sanchez.
Abel stated basically that there are those bloggers that hate the AA church because of their harsh comments on these very blogs.
Mr. Abel, that tree of hatred, to those that actually hate the church, was planted years ago by the disfunctional and corrupt leadership that were allowed to rise to ministry.
Those same people probably had a great love for God and the AA.
However, as somewhere down the line leadership failed and these people are dealing with hurt feelings. Not all people have learned to deal with it as we have. We have learned to deal with it because of the teachings in the Bible. The teachings that are never taught because of leaderships fetish of the properity doctrine, the praise doctrine, the pass the time away preachings.
These are issues that you cannot just, as The Aguilar's would say, "Praise Away".
Between Us.
I agree w/you in most. But I sincerely wonder how much our old timers knew without knowing the greek/hebrew. As you said:
"Knowledge can come by many means. Our old timers knew the Word without a degree. They read it and assimilated it and brought it forth"
Now while I believe they are in heaven, some of the teaching of the AA need to be reevaluated. I love the Oneness doc, but I know alot of bretheren that believe in
baptismal regeneration.(Salvation BECAUSE.. of baptism) In no way am I trying to be offensive but the greek has alot to say about Acts 2:38
La Paz
Yard sale sat. Half off canned goods and bottled water. hehehe!
Peace out.
We are getting to caught up in the greek and hebrew. Im not saying that its not important to know it but someone explained it like this...
Reading the English bible is like watching Black and White TV, you still understand what is going on and you are able to have comprehension of the picture (or scriptures)
However, understanding the Greek/Hebrew gives it "Color" to the picture...Therefore giving it a fuller meaning but not a necessity.
Not all Ministers in the AA are ignorant and uneducated...Lets not bash on those who didnt have any type of education but who love God with all of their heart...
I agree that there is a lot of spiritual abuse in the AA and many "preachers" who simply just dont say anything when they preach but not all AA ministers are of that sort. Some really study hard and do feed their flock...
Amen,
I am all for education.
However when it comes to spiritual matters I have seen God truly use and bless some tru Men of God to bring forth the word in a powerful way.
Education prepares and refines your vocabulary as well as expands your insight and knowledge .
But when it comes to the bible and preaching God can use anyone.
Paul,
I am baffled by your comments. If anyone should be going to back to the Hebrew and Greek it should be the Assembly. The Assembly has made a mess out of Biblical theology and it's safe to assume that most apo's don't know why they believe what they believe.
Your acceptance of an English only translation of the Bible and comparing that to being fine with black and white TV is a perfect snapshot of the mentality of the Apostolic Assembly - it's either black or white.
That my friend is the crux of the matter. Keeping it black or white masks the true colors of what we really are, thus never seeing God for who He really is and what He CAN do. Black/white revelation - what a sad doctrine to be built upon.
Not all ministers are ingnorant. Some are actually called and do more with limited knowledge than those with a full complement of Tomos I, Tomos II, Tomos III.
However, its the Apostolic Political System and the AA Ministerial Program, and Educational System that is filled with holes that do more harm than good.
Its just sad to see that the Esteemed Leadership has a closed minded mentality. For the most part, the current leaders are the ones who did and do not promote higher education for the youth and frowned upon those who took time to get their education.
Lord Help Us
Repus,
Thank you for your comments on my comment. However, read it again. I am not saying that we should avoid the Hebrew/Greek neither am I saying that the English translation should be taken as either black/white (either take it or leave as you seem to insinuate).
The illustration I used, taken from Charles Ryrie professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, points to the fact that the scriptures can still be understood by the minister and even the average Christian even without the Hebrew/Greek.
Understanding the Greek/Hebrew "enhances" the students ability and if it can be learned should be learned because it will give a "Color" effect as color does to TV or in this sense a better understanding.
The fact that people or apostolics do not know what they believe in or even why is not a case of Hebrew/Greek it is a case of not studying the word diligently (2 Tim. 2:15)
By they way this is not a doctrine, just an illustration...
Paul,
You're right, after re-reading your post I think I see a clearer picture of what you were trying to say. My response to you may have been overkill (think i had too much rockstar).
But I do like your black and white tv illustration. Why? Because this is the very thing that is crippling the AA. The AA embraces what Pastor Julano-de-tal says about the Bible, rather than embracing what the Bible says directly to us. There is an enormous difference between the two. Adding to your analogy, Pastor Julano-de-tal will say, "The color of this image is actually blue, although you all see dark grey, I've prayed and fasted, and the Lord showed me it is blue." But how do we really know it is blue since all we see is a black/white image? Depending on your personality, you'll either accept it, question it or ignore it. Most who have questioned it are ostracized, those who accept it have been hurt and those who ignore it remain complacent.
The lack of understanding of what the Bible actually says and means has caused the AA's theology to go astray. At this point in the AA's history, it is paramount to break out the Hebrew and Greek lexicons and figure out where their theology went wrong. Once they connect the dots, and add *color* to the big picture, they will see God for who He really is and build upon that.
Coming Soon!
Its the message in all the Apostolic websites. Cid Sad
Van....
I understood what you were saying about Bishop Abel Torres’ letter to Sanchez regarding all the anger on the blogs. I would like to elaborate further on what Bro. Torres was trying to say.
You mentioned that there is a lot of hurt brought about by ‘dysfunctional and corrupt leadership who were allowed to rise to ministry.’
There is also a lot of anger and rage outside of the blogs, which has been perpetuated by the injustice and discrimination also on the part of the leadership.
Someone wrote that the theology of the Assembly has gone so astray, that there really isn’t any. That begs the question. If we are not living by a correct theological understanding of our doctrine, what are we living by?
And that brings us to what is happening today, because there is no law that anyone seems to be living, so what do we have? It is called Anarchy. Synonyms to anarchy are rebellion, chaos, mayhem......
We have been conditioned to a cult mentality; programmed, expected to behave;
Hear nothing,
Say nothing,
See nothing and
Do nothing.
This is also part of our cultural issues;
patronismo,
nacionalismo y
machismo.
This is not so much a spiritual issue, but a cultural and carnal issue.
We allow our leadership to act as princes and princesses, lording above the common man.
And should the common person ask of or question these higher ups, we are treated deplorably, shunned and blackballed. Not treated as children of God or a royal priesthood, but at a source of money, adulation and idolizers.
Do you think there isn’t any anger among the Varones, nationally? Remember that they had a president who was also a Pastor, and who was re elected (appointed) over and over.
Were there no other qualified men during that time who could be President of the Varones? All the men of this group are good for is FUNDRAISING and being in charge of chauffeuring Board members and delivering them to the best hotels.
Do you think there isn’t any rage among the Dorcas who have had the same President and Vice President since the world was flat?
Are there no other qualified women who could do this job? The ladies of the Dorcas feel that they are only good for servitude, raising vast amounts of money to hand over to the General Board by the Ladies Pres & VP.
Do you think there isn’t any rage among the Messengers of Peace, when they think that they are actually voting for someone to lead them, and then find out that someone else was appointed despite the vote?
Don’t you think there is anger and rage in the whole assembly when the Pastors are put to fast and pray during elections, don’t eat for 14 hours, only so that Baldemar could be named by the ‘hermana cali, la descalificadora’ for 23 years, as President, Vice President, President, Vice President.....?
Don’t you think there isn't anger on the part of Dan Salomon when during the reign of Baldemar, he was kept away from the General Board, except for positions on Committees?
Don’t you think that the missionaries aren't angry that the money of the Flor Azul and the Dorcas is not sent to them, but used by the General Board for their extravaganzes?
Don't you think that the Pastors and church people were angry to hear that the missionary from Mississippi had to go to another denomination for help when the money collected nationally by Abel Aguilar for him and other missionaries was never sent to the missionaries and a million dollars was sent elsewhere?
Don’t you think that there wasn't anger on the part of the Pastors who had to give $5,000 at the Convention at the Gaylord, their members hard earned money - money that was going to be used to sue each other?
Don’t you think that the Assembly is angry because Sanchez, Pacheco, Valverde, Aguilar should have improved relationship between the Board and the Assembly, but rather worsened it with continued election fraud? Dan Sanchez was taught about election fraud by Baldemar.
Don’t you think that the AA is angry because Baldemar and Salomon, two political rivals are now in cahoots, suing the Assembly?
Don’t you think there isn’t anger among those brethren who have made mistakes that the Assembly considers ‘unpardonable sins’ and are unable to be restored, when children of the leadership are allowed to fail and be restored over and over again?
We can go on all night, but don’t you think that the bloggers and people who are not bloggers are angry because the Bishops have to favor and cater to the General Board in order to be ‘appointed’ then can be removed on a whim by the GB?
Don't you think that people get angry at Pastors who exploit their members, the finances of the church and when it is brought up to the Board by a member, the Board takes the side of the errant Pastor?
Could it be that the Pastor may have something on some of those Board members?
I think that the correct term of ‘angry’ is more than right.
I have just elaborated a little tiny bit, but if you go into history, you will dig up the sources of all this accumulated anger.
Concluding here.... if we were able to remove our masks of anonymity which allows us to vent our anger, how long would we survive the onslaught of retalilation by not only the Board but our holier-than-thou Peers?
Unfortunately, shamefully, we would turn on each other in favor of the Board, and allow them to continue to destroy those who would dare oppose them.
We are angry because there is no solution.
Bro. Torres sees this anger, but he doesn't write with boldness and courage, rather he appealing to the conscience of a man who doesn't have one.
Between us,
I enjoyed your comments and agree with most.
However, how can we say that Bishop Torres is not writing with Boldness and Courage? The Fact that he places his name, reputation, family and church on the line for the good and integrity of the church is evidence enough of his boldness and courage.
Bishop Torres appealing to President Sanchez conscious in a respectful manner is showing respect for the Delegated Spiritual Authority that God has given Sanchez.
"Delegated Spiritual Authority"
I'm sorry, but Sanchez is in office because of Election Fraud, Manipulation, and Dirty Tactics.
Unless, we are talking about Spiritual Authority Delegated from the main evil spirit, Satan, I don't think so.
Van,
Go back a read some of Abel Torres previous documents and you will see that Sanchez and Valverde were elected fairly. All Pastors voted for them.
The problem lies when they voted for Pacheco, Maffey and Aguilar.
We may not agree with Sanchez, As I personally do not but we must still follow the lead of King David and respect "Saul" (President Sanchez) in His place of authority.
I believe this is what Abel Torres has demonstrated. Disagreement but yet still respectful.
When Malverde was originally elected, he was not "Qualified" per the constitution.
As for Sanchez, well, the Fruit of his labor speaks for itself.
Copied From Apostolicassembly.info
======================================================================
When I read the comments of people of this young generation, about the good old times, when the AA was so pure, I can’t help it, but smile.
You see, I have been in the AA for about 60 years, and I have seen a lot of things, like when Crispín and Pedro Lesprón separated from the Asamblea, because of the “Santa Cena Espiritual”.
Then I also saw and was in the middle of it, when Pablo García Chávez separated from the Asamblea with the churches in the States of Texas, Colorado, New México and Arizona,
I saw things the hermanos did, that are shameful, and they did them in the name of the Asamblea.
They used to send the deacons to spy on the hermanos, such was the spying, that the deacons would be looking into the houses to see what the hermanos were doing wrong, and they would follow people to work or where ever they when, to see what they did.
Then in the 60s the way they, the mesa directiva persecuted al hermano Valverde,
the legally elected President, using all kinds of back stabbing to get rid of him.
and they did get rid of him, with the blessing of the vice President and the rest of the Mesa Directiva.
What is happening now is nothing, the Asamblea con overcome it, and it will, but please don’t make us old timers laugh, for we have seen a lot, and if the Lord doesn’t come yet, you will also see a lot of things, for it’s a cycle, that happens every so often,
May God Bless Brother Sanchez, and Brother Baldemar, for they are servants of
God, and you and I better not forget it, the Apostolic Assembly is an Organization,
Incorporated, that is all, it’s the Church that counts; Salvation is in Jesus name, not in the name of the organization, or Brother Sanchez or Rodriguez.
Paul said I didn’t die for you, nor Peter nor Apolos, Jesus did.
God bless everybody.
======================================================================
Thanks alot for the input Granpa. Nothing like hearing how things were worse in the past. Your comments just confirmed how bastardized the "Organization" known as the Apostolic Assembly has become. Did I say bastardized? Perhaps I meant filthy. What a nice historical perspective you gave us Gramps.
The differnce between the newer generation of AA members and Geezers like yourself, a Satan Sympathizer, is that the Younger Generation has taken time to pick up the bible and READ it.
You Oldies were mostly a Farmero population who converted from the Catholic Church filled with Machismo. Sorry, but your woman beating generation is passing away as well as the tolerance for those shady shananigans. Spiritual Hoodlem are no longer tolerated.
Interesting quote from Wikipedia:
Finally, the Apostolic Assembly is challenged to raise it's educational and theological levels. This is due to that initiation and ordination rules are not as demanding in this area as they are in other Oneness Pentecostal Denominations, thus raising the probabilities of ministerial unpreparedness to congregational and spiritual needs. To this point, the Apostolic Assembly currently has in most of its districts a CBAN (Colegio Biblico Apostolico Nacional or a National Apostolic Biblical College) College and it is now necessary that all deacons seeking ordination must attend courses in their District's CBAN, if there is one available to attend.
End Quote.
they should make it a LAW for all ministers to go back to biblical school
It still amazes me that there are ministers coming up with "new" "revelations" on the oneness.
With all the many deep topics they can speak about, they are stuck on ONE. As if they need extra convincing that there is not "Trinity" as the Trinos see it.
Accept the oneness and MOVE ON, ok. Thank you. Geeeesh!
And while were on the topic.
Allright already with the man made doctrines.
How long will our ministers be stuck on the same broken record.
No pants , no make up and no jewelry !
Read some scripture already !
They just seem to quote verbatim what is in the nabcela and cban textbooks.
Some of the most arrogant preachers like Richard Buffet and Eddie Pachueco cant preach worth a lick.
I seriously dont understand what their proud about ?
AMEN AMEN!!!
(Reuters) - Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon named actor George Clooney, who has campaigned for refugees in Darfur, as a U.N. "Messenger Of Peace" on Friday to promote the world body's peacekeeping efforts.
Clooney is the ninth U.N. messenger -- people chosen from the fields of art, music, literature and sports who have agreed to help focus attention on the United Nations' work.
U.N. spokeswoman Michele Montas said Clooney would have a special emphasis on peacekeeping. She said he had been "recognized for focusing public attention on crucial international political and social issues."
Clooney, who is currently in Sudan, will receive his designation on January 31 at U.N. headquarters.
With fellow actors Don Cheadle and Brad Pitt, Clooney, 46, has used his celebrity status to raise money for refugees through their "Not On Our Watch" charity and draw attention to the crisis in Darfur in western Sudan.
The United Nations is trying to deploy a peacekeeping force in Darfur, where international experts say some 200,000 people have been killed and more than 2 million driven from their homes in fighting between Sudan's government and Darfur rebels.
Clooney has starred in a number of films with political themes and won an Oscar in 2005 for his role in "Syriana."
Last month, he and Cheadle were honored by Nobel peace laureates in Rome for their efforts in Darfur.
The other U.N. messengers of peace are actor Michael Douglas, musicians Daniel Barenboim, Midori Goto and Yo-Yo Ma, authors Paulo Coelho and Elie Wiesel, naturalist Jane Goodall and Olympic equestrian Princess Haya of Jordan.
The program was started by Ban's predecessor, Kofi Annan, in 1998.
(Additional reporting by Bob Tourtellotte in Los Angeles, editing by Doina Chiacu)
The Letter quoted up above from the AA-HGB & a Letter from Bro. Abel Torres regarding his removal have both been posted on the AA.info website
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqA_v1fHsyk
I think Bill Clinton needs to hear one of Malverde's "How to make a Turkey" Convention Preachings instead. Look...
http://www.nypost.com/video/?vxSiteId=0db7b365-a288-4708-857b-8bdb545cbd0f&vxChannel=NY%20Post&vxClipId=1458_227094&vxBitrate=700
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