Honorable Bishop President Daniel Sanchez,
I greet you in the name of our loving Savior Jesus Christ. I pray God's blessing and wisdom upon you and your family.
The purpose of my letter is to address the matter of the removal of Former Bishop Abel Torres.
As you are aware the movements of the General Board are posted on this site daily. Prior to your visit to Texas, the agenda of your travels was published on this site. The outcome of your meeting with Brother Torres was immediately published on this site. The outcome of your visit with the Pastors of their respective district was again immediately published on this site.
Although many disagree with the purpose of this website, it has become a gathering place for those who LOVE this heritage of the Apostolic Assembly. The amount of visitors to this site is astonishing. Those who take time to post are passionate about their feelings. Some are well articulated and some are crass and rude. But nonetheless they are passionate! No one, not one, wants to leave this beloved organization. That, My Dear Bishop President, is LOVE.
Many view this lawsuit as addressing a plague affecting this organization. Many view this lawsuit as the affliction itself. Which ever side the constituents of this Assembly are on, we seem to agree on one thing: Brother Abel Torres was wrongfully removed.
Bishop President Sanchez, respectfully I submit to you a personal story.
I once held a secret clearance for a government agency for a line of work I was in. Prior to my employment with this agency I underwent a very stringent and lengthy background test which included psychological tests, physical test, criminal checks, 30 year background checks, social affiliations, credit checks, drug tests and mental aptitude tests. This process took several months. By the grace of God, and God fearing parents who instructed me on the value of my testimony, I gained clearance and proceeded to work diligently for a number of years in this environment.
Several opportunities arose which required a move to the private sector. Upon leaving the government agency, my superior officer told me, "We are losing a valuable asset, if you are not happy with your new duties do not hesitate to come back. We will only have to review from the time of this termination to the time of your reinstatement request. You are already cleared and on record from this date backward". This meant if I chose to return, I would not have to undergo all the previous test again. I would only be accountable for the time I left this agency and the time I requested to return. My clearance up unto that point was granted.
Respectfully I bring these items to you attention.
1. Brother Torres was voted in by an overwhelming margin as Bishop of his respective district. The local pastors were and are aware of his involvement this lawsuit but still held fast in their hearts and spirit they wanted him to lead their district. This was because of his integrity, character and record.
2. Brother Abel Torres, under the existing CID, was approved to charge the office of District Bishop. The opportunity arose to disqualify Brother Torres from the District election for reasons of insubordination or rebellion but the election committee felt he was qualified nonetheless. Brother Torres gracefully accepted this position and communicated his desire to continue God's work through the office of Bishop and bring resolve to the aforementioned matter.
3. During Brother Torres' short administration as Bishop, he worked with humility, integrity and the fear of God. He did not use his position to bring reproach to the General Board or the Apostolic Assembly. He did not use his position as leverage on behalf of the plaintiff's of the lawsuit. Rather he worked to bring the parties together as a peacemaker.
4. On December 28, Brother Torres was removed from the Office of Bishop. Brother Torres gracefully accepted the General Board's removal of his title. He did not use this action to bring reproach to the General Board or the Apostolic Assembly.
My beloved Bishop President, I submit to you 1 Corinthians 13: 4-7.
4.Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5.It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7.It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Although comments on this website fall short of reflecting of this scripture, I would suggest that Brother Torres does not. His actions are that of love - (13. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love).
I addressed the disclosure or awareness of the movements of the General Board and actions during the dates leading and up to the removal of Brother Torres from Bishop to also bring to light that we are also aware that Brother Torres did no wrong doing whatsoever during his term as Bishop. I would suggest to you that had their been impropriety on Brother Torres' behalf, it would have been well documented on this website and should be held responsible for those
actions if true.
Since Brother Torres was accepted as Bishop during the district election, and there was no impropriety on his part during his administration and reason for removal, we are asking that Brother Torres be re-instated as Bishop of his respective district.
He was granted clearance by the local pastors of his district, he was granted clearance by the election committee and General Board. And he did nothing during his administration to remove said clearance up until the time he was stripped of his position and until present.
The local pastors and leaders again called upon his reinstatement the same day by their actions in re voting and calling upon him to be their Bishop. This should be taken as a vote of confidence on his behalf.
My beloved Bishop President. there are many matters in our Assembly that need to be addressed and corrected. We know that they cannot be changed over night. However, we do not need to keep adding to that list.
I know it is a great burden that is on the shoulders of you and your administration, I pray that God grants you the strength and wisdom to keep the flame burning.
I ask that you please reinstate Bishop Abel Torres as Bishop. It is the right thing to do.
With Respect and Love,
Apostolic Voice
952 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 952 Newer› Newest»dudeskie,
None of what you've just said, except for Bro. Torre's testimony, will be admissible in court.
The fact that no pastor has come forward to say that they voted for pacheco is not a legal argument. Unless the plaintiffs are going to subpoena all 600+ pastors to testify at trial about their vote, they won't be able to make this argument.
Besides, a good lawyer will find inconsistencies in someone's testimony, and if the person who's testifying (Bro. Torres, for instance) isn't prepared, he will be shredded to pieces.
apoww08,
I am not debating your prediction on what a judge may or may not do, and I'm not debating whether there is any legal evidence.
I am just serving notice to the fact that regardless of what the judge declares, it is wrong that the prayerful votes of these pastors were disregarded and someone was appointed rather than elected - that's all.
To say that Edward Pacheco was correctly and ethically voted in is like saying OJ Simpson is innocent. Just because a judge can't find legal evidence, doesn't mean it never happened.
My question is:
Let's end this whole fiasco with one SIMPLE act, let's bring out all pastors that voted for Edward Pacheco. Why don't we just do that? It'll end this whole entire misery. IT hasn't happened because there are no pastors that voted for him.
To apoww08,
I find your comment rather amusing! You are right about one thing, not many of us are legally competent, but FYI you are right dead center in the midst of us. The word is not proponderance for your information it is preponderance big difference! Now what other evidence do you or anybody else want, Torres was there to oversee the counting of ballots, Sanchez entrusted him to this delicate position. May I say it again? He entrusted him! It should be a Slam Dunk! you see election fraud is an infraction against the Episcopal body of the AA. Someone needs to be held accountable for this atrocity. As for Torres having to proof anything , it will be that he knows how to count ballots( one vote and another vote make two votes for Pacheco) WOW! that's a tough for someone that he's favorite subject in college was math.
GN
Excuse me . . . O.J. Simpson is more innocent than the HGB. 'All' OJ did was kill two innocent people. The HGB are leading the AA down a dark path. My Bible warns . . . Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Too many lives are being destroyed by what the HGB have done.
As for removing Bro. Torres and it being a logical maneuver . . . Bro. Torres is the 'whistle blower' The law forbids retaliatory acts.
As for a smoking gun, there is an arsenal.
If – IF – the judge for some reason finds for the defendants, then it will be up to the Pastor of this organization to unite and impeach the current GB. Although it would be difficult, it would not be impossible.
I agree, the biggest mistake was not putting an illiterate person in charge of Christian Education, nor was it disqualifying a candidate with 600 prayerful pastoral votes. The biggest mistake was allowing a person, having never been elected bishop of any district, with a very questionable past/present, and only two votes to take the number three seat in the organization.
Add to dudskie's list:
*In every election, including those of corporations, the ballots for an must be kept, legally. The physical ballots, not just a tabulating sheet. That way if there is a question about the election it can be easily settled. I mean that's a no brainer.
Although I'm not saying this is a slam dunk case, its not an easy case for the defendants either. If the defendants wanted to quash this lawsuit before it even went to a judge, all they would have to do is produce the ballots, which they have not.
Instead, the ballots were allegedly taken to Waukegan, IL outside of procedure to keep them at Headquarters.
Although it isn't a sure victory, at least as far as what we publicly know, its also pretty solid. The ballots can easily be subpenaed if they are not willingly handed over.
Actually... that does make it a slam dunk case.
Unless you don't know how to count.
Just in case...
1 + 1 = 2 !!
I'm not saying that the defendants will prevail or that I want them to. I'm taking no sides on this legal mess; I'm simply making observations from a legal standpoint.
Is Bro. Torre's testimony the "smoking gun" is this case? what if another member of the QC refutes his testimony in court? then what?
As to the "whistleblower" claim, I don't believe that applies here, because Bro. Torres is not an "employee" of the AA. Even if he does have a whistleblower claim, it has no bearing on this case at all. He would have to file a separate lawsuit, and since he's in TX and the corporate HQ are in CA, he'd have to file a lawsuit in federal court.
Some of the whistleblower federal statutes only have a 30-day statute of limitation, meaning that if he doesn't file this lawsuit within 30 days, he'd be barred from ever doing so.
Biz,
Wow, that easy huh? I wouldn't want you presiding over my case if I were a party in a case.
You have no idea what evidence the defense will present in court, yet you've already found for the plaintiffs.
I think we are forgetting one thing. That Bishop Torres was not the only one who counted the ballots. He is the one testifying that there were only "2" votes but others helped in tallying the votes.
This will confirm in court that not only one person saw what happened but several.
apoww08,
You're right. I and most people have been quick to jump the gun and decide. I am a firm believer in our justice system that holds you innocent until proven guilty. And you are right; the plaintiffs have the burden of proof.
If I were presiding over such a matter it would be wrong for me to jump to conclusions. Being a mere member, without the authority to declare guilt, I have a little more latitude with my words. Some people take this latitude to the extreme, hence some of the ill-spirited comments on this blog.
I do not say this to say that I am correct in assuming guilt. I am just saying that the GB has opened the door for these opinions by their handling of this case (more below). For the record, I didn't decide on the comments I wrote on a whim. I didn’t form this opinion until months after I heard about it, and it is not yet set in stone, as we have not seen all the evidence.
I think we have all assumed (most of us here anyway) and we all know what happens when you ASS U ME. But…
The comment I made above is made on an assumption. That assumption is that ballots exist and they are in the number told to us by Bishop Torres. Yes it is an assumption, but it is one that the GB has left the door wide open for. We have to be careful to say that “guilty people hide nothing” and assume guilt because our justice system gives the right of silence until a fair and impartial trial. However, the GB has denied this matter due process, and in clear violation of the constitution (a committee of Justice and Honor was never formed). The GB has not been transparent with the matter since the beginning. An “extensive investigation” was conducted behind closed doors without any transparency. The investigating committee produced no report of their findings, but the findings were simply alluded to in a letter.
They have refused to answer questions brought to them by pastors and leaders in our church. They have even arrogantly told a pastor that he has no right to ask questions because he wasn’t there (response to pastor Jauhall’s letter).
When accusations are made, they are to be addressed, something that has not happened in our church. That is the reason they will now be addressed by a judge.
Pray wisdom on the judge that will be presiding over the case. That he may be impartial, and that he may ultimately do what is right.
biz,
I wholeheartedly believe that the GB has some tough questions to answer, and in due time, they will have to answer them.
I wouldn't be surprised if the judge found several inconsistencies in the way the elections were run, but the million dollar question is if he believes that such inconsistencies merit that the election as a whole be deemed invalid. I highly doubt it.
The plaintiffs have the burden to prove that the inconsistencies were so numerous and blatant that the only recourse is a new election.
Even if the plaintiffs win the case, and there is a new election, and there is a complete change in officers, there will still be a dissfunctional AA.
Someone, in an ealier post stated that the AA was formed like a ticking time bomb, because of the way it is structured and organized.
I concur. Not only flawed in structure. it's ran by the lowest of the low. We have non-professionals, with a few exceptions in Mascareno and Zaragosa in SD and a few others, running the organization.
Currently, we are lead by college drop outs. No, a BA is Theology from La Puente Bible School, an un-accredited, un-academically recognized school does not constitute a formal education.
Thus, we are lead by failed people who are using the organization and Jesus for their own economic gain. Thus, we have the corruption, poliitcs, back-stabbing, strong-arming tactics the AA, GB and Bishops have employed to stay in power.
A new election might be granted, but it will still be the same old game but with recycled players.
Basically what you are saying is that it will become:
the same movie - different theater.
the same TV show - different channel
the same restaurant - different city. No? OK,
the same taco, different taco bell?
I agree with you Van.
For a very long time I believe that our organizational structure is conducive to corruption and counterproductive to growth.
What this might accomplish is the realization of members and pastors that there is too much power in the hands of few and that something has to be done about it.
But it might not. We have a deeply engrained culture of submission to authority, even when the authority is clearly wrong.
I'm not saying we should not submit to authority. But I don't know about you but we are a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD. The reason we don't have priests is because we all have access to God. We are all filled with the Holy Spirit. We should have authority but not tyranny.
If somebody wants to be a priest or priestlike or an authoritarian bishop (a biblical bishop is simply an overseer of a church) or a cardinal or a pope, they should go to the catholic church, or to any other church that has an authoritarian structure (i.e. a cult).
To add to former-aa's list...
A new election will be like changing your calzones...
new calzones, but same ole........shshsh..... poop!
err, same poop, different toilett.
that shrimp fits in a toilett. FLUSH!
LOL!! Stop! I'm at work, sitting in my cubicle laughing like an idiot-- to my self!
JIHAD TO RANCHO!!
A new election means...
we're still getting screwed, just in a new position.
Different Pupusa, same old constapation....
Our Episcopal Body are Bottom Dwellers. Leaches. Under achievers.
I like the lines I hear from future Bishops Richard Maffey, Abel Duarte, and current Head Vice Queso Malverde and the like that say stuff like:
"I was going to be a Doctor/Lawyer/Rocket Scientist/Rock Star, when God called me to the Ministry"
Gee, thanks guys. You just made God, who created the Universe, Nature etc... into a Limited Being. Not like you can't serve in the Ministry and have get an Education and have a Career like Dr. Amin, Rod Garcia, So on and so forth...
La Puente Bible School Alumns must be given the Boot!
Jihad al Rancho y Ke!
To apoww08:
Do you think the AA's voting inconsistencies could have been fixed in a different manner other than going to court? Could there had been proposals that pastors could have voted on to remedy the inconsistencies of the voting process? Or maybe assign committees to find methods of conducting elections more efficiently.
In my opinion, it seems that Bro. Sanchez did not want Bro. Solomon on the General Board. From what I hear, Bro. Sanchez and Bro Solomon did not have a good relationship. The word is that Bro. Solomon received a majority vote but got disqualified by the Qualifyng committee. A committee that Sanchez was a part of (I got this information from the signatures that were sent to Art Tafoya by the General Board), Where is the check and balance on that set up? What are the reason for Bro. Solomon being disqualified?
How can Bro. Sanchez be a part of the General Board and part of the Qualifying committee? If I am understanding correctly this seems to be very unethical. Once again, my opinion is synthisized from what I am reading and there is possibillity that I may not understand some things.
There are rumors (again these are Rumors) that Bro. Sanchez and Bro. Valverde were making plans as to who they wanted on the GB prior to the elections of 2006. I am somewhat inclined to believe this rumor, because I do not understand why Bro. Solomon would be disqualified for position that he is qualified for. Whether or not the GB wins this lawsuit, I think this is wrong. This appears to be dirty politics at its worst and I am saddened because it is happening in the church.
If my facts are straight, I can understand why Bro. Solomon would place a lawsuit. Sincerely, I am trying to understand what is going on here and I am not trying to attack anyone. In the middle of this lawsuit, I still respect our GB members and Plantiffs as men of God. Not perfect men, but sincere men.
In your opinion, and if my facts are straight, does Bro. Solomon have a legitimate case if they have voting counts and whatever required evidence. Would the GB be required to prove that Eddie Pacheco is more qualified than Daniel Solomon? and would the GB be required to disclose all Credible evidence as to why Bro. Solomon is unqualified?
I am glad that you have posted and any light you can shed on this would be geatly appreciated. I am inquiring of you because I no legal expert.
God bless You
Wally Wilbur Wilford
WALLY,
IT SUPRISES ME THAT THESE WORDS WOULD COME FROM ONE WHO IN PRIOR POSTS NEARLY HAD A HEART ATTACK BECAUSE SOME OF US POSTED COMMENTS AND FAILED TO SEND YOU SWORN AFFIDAVITS AND OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION ON EVERY COMMENT MADE.
YOU TYPED " The word is that Bro. Solomon received a majority vote but got disqualified by the Qualifyng committee. "
THE WORD IS.....??????
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE DOCUMENTS AND EVIDENCE YOU ASKED FROM EVERYONE ELSE ?
HIPOCRITE
Rumble!
Wally Vs. Enrique
Clash of the Titan 2008!
Live On-Line!
Web-Clash-Bash! No Holds Barred! Catch the Action for only $5.00
On-Line Web Debate at:
www.Apostolic-Clash-2008.com
All Funds to be donated to the King Taco Foundation in care of Bishop Martin Del Campo
Why is Wally a Hyprocrit? I don't think so. Wally, like the REST OF US, expressed with vigor. Not like any of us have ever been emotional in our responses.
Now that Wally has a different view or has changed his mind due to a revelation or the presentation of evidence, you call him a name?
So much for changing minds by arguing.
I mean put that same logic to practice in preaching the gospel. We get someone who is an acoholic, devil worshiping, evil addict, and get him or her converted to Christ, do we then call them a Flip Flopper, a Hyprocrit, or Trader?
I certainly have changed my mind on the un-honorable apostolic assembly. I guess I be hyprocrit #1.
Peace
Jihad King Taco!
Why do people keep referring to the GB as HGB?
I wonder if this blog is just me and a couple of others.
Cause sometimes the comments seem to be very similar and the only thing that changes are the user names.Hee Hee
Here we go again with the fake and multiple profiles.
To quote Yogi Berra " It's like DeJa Vu all over again ".
This site is very comical at times,after the whole election debacle is sorted out we should keep this blog open for discussing many more topics.
.
I agree with Enrique. It should be kept opened so that leaders will think three times before doing something that smells like stupid.
BLOG will now be the bad 4 letter word. In fact, it might even make it to one of the AA constitutional standards:
Thou shalt not go to the movies.
Thou shalt not cut thy hair.
Thou shalt not wear pants.
Thou shalt not wear shorts.
Thou shalt not BLOG.
In the future when your pastor says something really really scandalous in his sermon, just sneeze really loud and yell BLOGSPOT at the same time. It'll make for a nice subtle threat.
Colorado,
That is an awesome idea.
That will keep them on their toes and walking the line.
First of all I would never fight Enrique, because it goes against my principles to hit an Hermana who likes yell on the blog unless Enrique does not realilze that Capitals mean a raised voice. In that case, I would have to wonder about the credibility of his higher education.
First of all, my post to apoww08 was an inquiry not an accusation. I am not sure about the outcome of the votes because I was not there. However, if what is said is true, then I was asking apowwo8 to share his opinion. Unlike Enrique, ap0ww08 seems to understand the legal process and could be informative. Like me, apoww08 is not on either side.
As far as character assassinations, I still disagree with that. APWC said that he had proof, but he never disclosed anything after I gave my email address. So as far as I am concerned I do not believe any of that garbage said about Pacheco.
Enrique you remind of this fight I got into when I was a primary. I was beating up this kid, but he just would not quit. I finally got tired of beating him up and I finally told him he won. All I want to say to Enrique is that you win. Obviously you could never support your accusations and you responded in Tity baby (WaWaWa) kind of way. I declare you winner so quit talking to me. If I feel like speaking to a buffoon, I will make sure to call your name.
Wally Wilbur Wilford
Round One Winner: Wally
Too bad we can make trades like they do in professional sports.
Play General Manager for a Day.
Here are my Deals:
Trade Malverde, Daniel Sanchez, Richard Maffey, Leobardo Maffey, GB5, The Duarte Brothers and Vonnie Lopez and the Future Rights to 5 La Puente Bible School Graduates in 2008, and 2009
for
GiGi Avila, Paula White and Marcos Witt.
The removal of Mendoza will only lead to a very costly age discrimination lawsuit. In Texas judges don't like seeing this kind of cases they normally side with the plaintiff! What an awesome GB. In Houston Valverde was not very well accepted either. Boy that will be fun to watch!
the_,
I believe chu. Chu mayk me pride!
Hermano, estoy bromeando contigo. No se me aguite! (Now you could make fun of my espanish)
Dios me lo bendiga!!!
What then, my fellow brothers and sisters, should we do? Really.
How can we, as members of the AA, change what is going on? Could we possibly go directly to the GH and demand answers? I think not. That is a ridiculous thought.
I think that our frustration in trying to understand this dilema is creating in us an antagonists' vehemence. We need to accept that what we see occuring before our eyes is ultimately in God's hands.
I'm sorry brethren, but there is nothing that anyone of us can do to change the current setting we find ourselves in. I apologize if I sound a bit melancholy or dismal, but truth is we are where we are because of who we are. Make sense? Probably not.
Anyway, I think I feel this way because I had a bad game today. FORE!!
from what i hear, if they remove pastor willie mendoza- houston, tx as they have done to bishop abel torres-midland, tx and pastor efrain andrade- hilton head, s.c., there is a crocodile in the waters lurking for sam valverde and leobardo maffey to do it next monday.
Plaintiffs:
Bishop Daniel Salomón 303/249-0942; Bishop Baldemar Rodríguez 909/957-9175; Bishop Abel V. Torres 423/352-3958 Pastor Saúl L. Ávila 512/731-9660
Consenters:
Bishop Ishmael C. Arellano; Bishop Daniel Jauhall; Bishop Richard Galaviz; Bishop Isaac H. Cota; Bishop Samuel C. Arellano; Bishop Guillermo M. Mendoza; Bishop Martín M. Vásquez; Pastor Efraín Andrade;
Wow guess who's next?
Isnt it funny when a pastor says "that haircut is unacceptable" and you ask him to show you where he drew that from the Bible they always say. "you need to be obedient!" If you ever question authority you are considered "disobedient". Whenever pastors cannot back up their beliefs biblically they always bust out the "DISOBEDIENT" card. Its really sad that most of our pastors in our beloved AA cannot soundly and biblically defend the things they require the congregation to do.
jose, do you know who is next?
since they have already done two in the middle and one in the east, maybe the west is next.
wait and see, is the name of the game.
Revolucion Apostolica - I think it is more than funny. It is sad that this occurs. In my experience and opinion, they respond like this because:
1. This is what they were taught. They reason, "If I was obedient, then you should too"
2. They really do not know how to respond because they were never taught or learned sound biblical apologetics - but then again how can you defend or teach perceptions on what constitutes short length, long length, high, low, wide etc.
Wally,
Dont get all hurt cause I told you the truth about yourself.
You said that you will no longer respond to me. Thats fine with me
Just do me a favor and dont chime in with your idiocy whenever I post.
Van,
And as for you sister vanessa I dont understand why you defend and cheer on this wally person.
Refresh my memory but isnt this individual the same person who called you VANgina ?
On second thought if I observe all your previous posts that comment wouldnt offend you at all.Your post are very very carnal.
Your always talking about drinking,sex and nightclubs.
Van are you really Apostolic ?
Or is Wally one of your alias's in order to make the blog more interesting ? Do you respond to your own posts ?
Hee Hee Hee
Personally, I believe that the whole DGB (Disonorable General Board) should step down until this whole mess clears up.
What will THEY do when the tables are turned around and what THEY are doing- will be done to them?
How can PaCHUECO live with himself knowing that he is at the root of this mess? What a man to accept something he didn't earn.
From friends of mine that are being held virtually hostage members at his church- I hear the church is pretty much dead. It's gone downhill and that his son-in-law and Yvie have also left. If you're own family isn't backing you up, what does that say?
i have a few friends where pastor willie mendoza is pastoring and they say that they have a nemesis in frank balboa. frank balboa had a fall-out with the pastor there and left like that to pastor in austin- upset. He is the one who is feeding a lot of misinformation to the general board. birds of a feather flock together.
RE: The obedient card
My pastor told me several times that I would go to hell if I disobeyed him. When I was a teen there was a lot that I didn't understand, I remember being very hungry for truth which made me very inquisitive. Usually the pastor would respond to me as if I was rebelling or lacked faith for asking so many questions or asking the pastor to elaborate. Several times after being fed up with me he would just say, "just obey what I say otherwise you may end up in hell." This would scare the hell out of me (literally), but though I tried, I couldn't take away my appetite to ask and know more - my yearning for truth was misunderstood and looked upon as being faithless.
I never understood why the AA never taught us to learn. They taught us what to say, how to say it and when to say it. They taught us what to wear, how to wear it, and when to wear it. They taught us where to go, how to go, and when to go. We knew the who, what when and how but were never allowed to know the "why". The response is always the same, "Out of obedience to the pastor."
Whatever happened to obedience to Christ? Are we blind to the fact that obedience is a natural response to love? Do we not know that love comes first, then obedience? If we teach people to learn, they will fall in love with the one whom they are learning about and will naturally do as Christ does, not do as what the pastor says.
I feel that our biggest failure has been, replacing Christ on the Cross with Pastor in a Benz.
Erniqueta:
Yes, Saint Enriqueta, I have carnal tendencies. At least I am strong enough to admit it. Sex, acohol, night clubs. Sure.
Tell us your hidden sins. Oh, I forgot, you are a perfect saint polishing a bench as a faithful member of an apostolic church.
Everyone, we have found someone who is sinless.
I guess Jesus saved some blood since you don't need any cleansing. No, Enrique has never sinnned. I bet you didn't even get baptised because you had no sins to repent from.
God sure doesn't need to hear from you since all is perfect in your little world.
Yes, Wally called me Van-gyna or was it Vangina. Big deal. So what.
If you can't take a little name calling, maybe you don't pass the mustard for being persecuted Christian. Lucky you weren't around in earlier ages where Christians were tarred and feathered and fed to the lions.
Geeesh, you get all butt hurt over a little online chatter.
Well, off to the night club to get some acohol(Not Wine like Enriqueta likes, but some vodka, a mojito or something) and some illicit sex. Sunday's a coming and I need a reason to go to the Apostolic altar and repent. Then the musicos will turn up the music, the pastor or MC will sing some songs and I will have my weekly repentence.
Jihad!!
Enrique:
Thank you for telling me the truth about myself. At first when I was thinking about it, I responded like the way have done in many of your posts (Wah Wah Wah). After the initial response of Wah Wah, I am thankful to you. Now, I hope you are thankful to me for telling you the truth about yourself.
Did you not know that Capitals means yelling? IYou say don't get all hurt, but If I was hurt I would yell at you. However, you are the one yelling at me.
I think you get frustrated with me because I have pointed out that anything you blog has no substance and that is probably why you resort to your Wah Wah Wah method of communication.
I am not Daniel Sanchez, Marc Payan, of Van. Why would you think that I have 2 blogging names? Although, I would not mind becoming best of friends with Van (lol). Now I leave you to suck on you pacifier and cry or whatever wah wah things you do. Do you have more than one alias.?
Wally Wilbur Wilford
Wally and Vanessa,
You two girls are hilarious.
Always fun for a laugh.
You two can go ride off into the sunset with each other.
Is there anyone out there with anything interesting to blog about ?
Any updates on the lawsuit or
Sanchez's movidas ?
Or am I stuck having to ruffle these two viejas feathers ?
Enriqueta:
Wow. If you want someting of substance, then simply refrain from blogging.
I'm sure after that, substance would grow by leaps and bounds.
Dude, you better get going, there's a customer waiting for you at the flashing Blue Light.
Friday's 50% off ke no?
Vanessa,
What in the world are you talking about ?
Blue lights ?
It must be a vieja thing.
Oh like your comments have had any substance please !
All you keep crying about is Pacheco over and over again.
Are you all tender and hurt because Pacheco broke your little heart back in the day.
Did you have a crush on him and now this is your way of getting back at him ?
Go back to your dorcas activities or whatever it is that you dorcas do make tamales etc....
RE: The obedient card Your post sounds eerily similar to the many people that suffer through those years. Many people like yourself had to deal with that kind of relationship and leadership. I was blessed to have a man of God at a very pivotal point in my life that challenged me to look at things for myself. I didn't always agree with him then.
As a matter of fact he would preach something that was very contradicting to many Apostolic Assembly norms (he wasn't the pastor, just a very gifted man that the Lord was using), then I would be the good Apo Boy and preach the following week in support of what he was challenging. I would simply use the same rhetoric and methodology that I was taught and witnessed for years. Deep down inside though I was not satisfied, and his challenges became a spring board for my own journey into... guess what... can you actually imagine.... the scriptures? I actually took the time to read those verses that were given to us to explain the "porque asi lo hemos hecho y asi se hara!" Interesting what happens when you do this.
Now I never lost personal respect for my leaders and especially pastors by attacking them or disrespecting their pulpits, but as we know that iron sharpens iron - I found it necessary to connect with those that I could bounce things off of to keep myself honest and centered to the task - bring people to the cross and make disciples.
Erniqueto:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Oh, you were commenting on something? Was it how Leo Maffey broke your heart because he passed you up for head usher.
We have an opening for Bathroom Attendant at our church. I'm sure you're qualified.
Also... When I say leaders and pastor, I am referring to my local assembly. Those men at HQ, thats a mess of a different color and smell.
Vanessa,
Is that the best you can do ?
WOW
I see what im dealing with here.
No wonder you got scammed py pacheco.
Not alot of brain cells left in that noggin of yours after all that pot smoking and beer drinking at the club Vanessita.
Its okay im sure your husband wally can comfort you tonight,
Former AA,
It is very sad how so many Apos are conditioned to go with the flow and be obedient to the norms of the AA mentality.
Deep inside many of us know that there are many man made doctrines and traditions in our assembly.
However it seems that in an effort to continue to be accepted many dont speak up or speak out even in the face of a so called man of God doing wrong.
They dont want to be shunned from the group and labeled as a rebel,outsider, or disobedient.
Enrique any comments on pastor Mendoza ordeal?
What about you Van or Wally.
Van:
Was it Bro. Maffey that passed him up or did a church Qualifying committee disqualify him? I wonder if they gave him credible evidence in writing or did they blow him off? It was probably the latter.
I think once the church members interviewed Enrique for bathroom attendant he would be disqualified. Again, no one would give him anything in writing.
The sad thing is Enrique is qualified to be a bathroom attendant but he gets disqualified because of his Wah Wah Wah personality.
Do you think us picking on Enrique is similar to the highschool jocks picking on a kid in Special Ed?
If yes, then maybe we should try to build him up even if we have to lie. We could say white lies like good blog, you seem to be smart, your blogs have substance or you are tough. Then maybe he will start believing in himself. This could be dangerous for Enrique because he would be the only one that believed and it would not be apparent to anyone else. On second thought tough love is better.
Wally Wilbur Wilford
Enrique
You made a good point which many fail to acknowledge or confront. Are people always going to be satisfied with "tradition"? I want to be apart of a movement, not a tradition. Traditions keep you in the same place. They are not always bad - like your family traditions. But when your church is based on it? You will have what you've always had because you are doing what you have always done = insanity. Next generation leaders need to respect the past, but look towards the future. Dont manage the past, lead into the future.
Wally:
I don't understand Enriqueta. Here were all are trying to arue points, using the power of persuasion, to convice each other of our points of view. You and I had our squabble and I respect how you wanted more documented evidence to convince you.
I'm not saying you have, but lets say you were convinced to believe what any of us had to say. That being said, I would be an idiot to then demean you by calling you a hyprocrit. It doesn't make sense. But then again, we are talking about Enriqueta, whom I agree with for the most part.
And another thing. Enriqueta has nerve blasting people for fake profiles. I seriously doubt that Enrique is his or her true identity. Let alone the picture of the Godfather is not likely his true image.
Sounds like a bitter soul, passed up by the Maffeys and unhappy.
And they say I sound bitter. Enriqueta, time to get yourself checked.
Van Vangina Vanessa Vanesita
Former AA,
Your right some traditions are fine, however in order to grow as christians we must as you said become part of a movement.
A movement that is based on scripture and understanding The heart and mind of Christ.
If we align ourselves with the move of God then we will grow as healthy christians.
If we follow the traditions of Men we will always go down the wrong path.
Men including myself are prone to sin so our eyes must be on Our Lord and nothing else.
Hello,
My thoughts on Bro Mendoza.
He is and never has been a pushover so if indeed he is removed I seriously doubt that he will take it lying down.
They are going to get into the fight of their lives if they continue strong arming Pastors and Bishops.
They will awaken the sleeping giant.
Enriqueta:
What is this? Now you are spiritual? You've gone from calling me and Wally Viejas to now you are teaching your sermon on the mount all santucho.
There's a word for that, but I will refrain.
Van Vangina Vanessa Vanesita
The General board are arrogant and have expressed their lack of caring for the laity of the assembly and the episcopal body as well.
They as leaders should have the best interests of the church as their top priority.
They have shown their ineptitude at leadership and their cold hearts concerning service.
Sounds like they are decribing the apostolic assembly here.
Look up:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/36094.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=868kPlI5i68&feature=related
To Hello:
I do not remember so if you can refresh my memory whether Bro. Mendoza is a consenter?
If he is not, then what reasons are they using to remove him?
If yes, I thought there was an injunction or block prohibiting the GB from removing anyone else.
When are they suppose to remove him?
GB wanting to remove Bro. Mendoza is this solid?
Sorry for not commenting, but I need to know more information before I give an opinion. Any details you can provide would be appreciated.
Van:
What surprises me about Enrique is that he called me a hypocrit over a blog that was not addressed to him. I did not solicit an opinion from Enrique.
By the way, please forgive me for calling you Vangina or any other hateful names. This was inappropriate and unchristian like on my part.
From what I remember I attacked you, but Enrique felt that he had to defend you. Again I never addressed Enrique, but he engaged himself. He is like a Vieja that involves himself in the business of others. Enrique starts a fight, but then gets offended. Poor Baby (Wah Wah Wah)
I will not form a negative opinion of someone until I have proof of their wrong doings. Personally I do not want to attack individuals (especially church leaders) but discuss issues and how to improve them. This was my reason for blogging apoww08 because he seems to have a strong understanding the legal process.
WWW
Hello Dudeskie,
you are such of smart chicano.
This is my comment about the lawsuit.
Let's say the defendants win:
Valverde will be president of the apostolic assembly. Why? Because after the election there will be a persecution, removing everybody (pastors, Bishops, ministers) that were against them in this process.
Now let's say the plantiffs win:
Valverde will be like who cares! I already have my own satellites churches all over to start my own assembly like my family in the past.
Check this web page:
www.gruposcasa.org
I hope you guys can understand
Put Mark Amin in a white suit, and the AA would have its own Benny Hinn.
Wally,
You are seriously a little vieja.
Why do you get so tender and hurt at what I say ?
Get over it and move on.
Obviously your little feelings were hurt by what I said.
You keep commenting about me.
If it didnt bother you you would have stopped mentioning or commenting about me like you said you were going to do.
I ignored your comments a few times and still you keep coming back for more.
Either give it a rest or dont complain when I make comments about you.
Wally,
You said I involve myself in the business of others because I comment on this blog ?
What a retard.
You know that this blog is seen by 100's if not 1,000's of people on the web.
That shows how mentally challenged you are.
If you want a one on one conversation then ask for van's
e-mail.
NOOOOOOOO I dont want anyone to comment but Van. BOOO HOOO you sound like a little chavala.
Enriqueta:
You need to go get some. Seriously bro or sis. This is one reason Paul says its better to marry than to burn. You're burning up con el pasion. Hit it for a bit, have a coke and relax. I mean in a biblical manner of course.
Well, off to the nightclub to have a drink(Not Wussy Wine) and some illicit sex.
Van Vangina Vanessa Vanesita
Wally:
Don't sweat it bro. I've been called much worse. Even so, its the internet, ke no? Its all dime smack. Well, thats what I thought until Enriqueta got all butt hurt.
Take it easy Enriqueta. Go home already and get some you know what if you know what I mean. In a biblical manner of course.
Van,
Your back at it now too.
Man you viejas are funny.
Well Van go and get your sin on thats probably all you know how to do.
Living for the flesh 100%
All mankind are sinners including myself.
But my goodness Van at least you got to try and connquer the flesh just a little my sister.
I leave you viejas with this thought from my portuguese grandma.
" nao faca exame da vida assim seriamente "
Enrique, Van and Wally,
Can you guys start your own blog dedicated to bashing each other? We simply do not care to read about your bickering on who said what and who started it.
You men sound too smart to be engaging in the childish "no, you did it" game.
Thanks guys.
Van:
I did not know that Enrique is a polyglot? Spanish, Portuguese, English. I am glad that he is not yelling at me like he did in one of his previous post.
Us viejas sure got him upset. He ignored us but we sure got him to engage again. Now you know what I mean about him being a special needs blogger. For one who speaks three languages, he seems mentally dense. Let see if this blogs draws him in again (hehehe).
www.gruposcasa.org ????
Did Sam V already start working on a new organization?????
I honestly wish that the Blogmaster would delete your comments and block your user ID's- I thought this was supposed to be about the elections, not a testosterone match.
You are the reason why most log on and comment once a week if at all.
sorry- that comment is to van, wally & enrique.
Cece:
As for the Court element of this blog, there is no news because we are in a down time until the next hearing. People are just checking in and we are doing nothing more than filling space in the time being until the next wave of developments.
Sanchez hasn't done anything important since he dropped Andrade and we are waiting the dime to drop on Willie Mendoza.
The next hearing is later.
Wally:
Yeah, I concurr. Enriqueta is suffering from something. What? I don't know. I do know that he should be one happy guy for circumstances I wont venture into.
But for some reason he's not. I think, while I'm at the nightclub, I'll raise a toast(Tequilita) to the stars and have a positive affirmation to the Milkyway on Enriqueta's behalf.
Enriqueta, before you give advice on conquering the flesh, perhaps you should look in the mirror where you will notice that you too need to do some conquering as well.
Again, at least I am bold enough to admit my short comings and weaknesses. I don't live that infamous double life.
Forrest Gump would say, or is it Bubba? Whoever. "I am like a box of chocolates. Dark and sweet, and what you see is what you get."
Ok, I'm out of hear. Wally, Cece, V-day, Dudeskie, and even Enriqueta
have a good weekend.
Enrique, relax. Take your new wife to the snow and have some fun.
God bless Pastor Efrain Andrade(pastor and great leader before Gods eyes)and God bless Bishop Torres a great leader!
Brother Andrade was removed for saying the truth.
ju.4all
Can you share the details of what Pastor Andrade said that they decided to remove him?
Van,
So now you think you know me ?
Sister Vanessa you have no idea who I am.
For me to take my " new wife " to the snow would first require that I have a wife.
And whatwever words I have said must have bothered you or you wouldnt keep commenting on my words over and over.
If I hurt your feelings I apologize I definitely am not one to judge anyone.
So go on and say what you will but from here on in I will no longer engage you or wally in any sort of discussion what so ever.
God Bless
check this out...
my friend in houston has alerted us that frank balboa continues to insert himself in the church's business there. he called a sister there where pastor willie mendoza pastors and told her some inside information. he told her that the commission that was going today to houston (valverde and maffey) were only going to visit with pastor mendoza about his financials and not to remove him.
how does he know that unless he has inside info, which we know he rubs elbows with the board.
one month ago, the board remove two other men, bishop torres and pastor andrade. we'll wait and see if they remove pastor mendoza. stay tuned. i have asked my friend to advice of the outome of today's meeting so that we can blog it here...
bro. willie mendoza is old school..
i'm talkin zoot suite, chicano old school... he may be old.. but he still has it in him..
i wouldn't mess with him if i was the GB, they are picking a fight with the wrong OG.. lol
th GB is hillarious... they should of just heard the complaints, made a few changes here or there, and this would of been over with. this is what happens when you get inept uneducated officials on yoru board of directors. horrible crisis managment, and people skills, hahaha these guys would get eaten up alive in the secular business world...
Enriqueta:
If you'll deny the little things, I wonder if you will pull a Peter and deny the big things.
I just don't understand how you can be so vindictive on one hand and be holier than thou on the other.
Just look at your posts. You praise Jesus and in the same post you show bitterness and hatred.
I on the other hand have a complete hate for Pachuco. I do not deny it. I can live with the consequences.
Since you won't bother responding to my comments anymore, I won't bother asking how come you did not post during the time you were on your luna de miel.
i don't see the AA being able to survive all of this...
its been exposed the for the racketeriing front that it is. it's a shame, a sham, and a disgrace.
it has lost its best talents, its most educated, and most professional people to other organizations. It has experienced what secular society calls "Brain Drain". Thats not an insult to them who stayed behind, but its a true phenomenom experienced by many developing coutries, and i am afraid by the AA too.
That helps explain its current leaders, its decision making skills, management/crisis management skills, or lack thereof all the previously mentioned.
Look at even the MOP board, which is suppose to offer a glimpse of the future, 2 non-educated leaders, a hand-picked hispanic puppet (and idealogical demagouge, if you heard his teaching or better said propaganda statement at natl convo's day classes) in an uncontested republican stronghold of a congessional district, and a guy from south texas's rio grande valley (enough said.. lol).
but the current and perhaps this being the last make-up of the leaders of the AA have become its own demise...
they have shunned and nearly oucasted the educated and enlightened among them.
but who can blame them for doing just that.. an enducated electorate woudl never allow their fraud, racketeering, pyramid scheming shenanigans to continue...
how many times did I hear at youth camp, i was oing to university, but i left it to pursue the things of god (yes little G)..
you fool, just becuase you were to small minded to pursue both of them, why did you attempt to outcast and shun those of us who attempted to do both, only to be prohibited from pursing our calling in the church, because of our pursuit of our education, or as you labeled it... our materialist secularist aspirations....
the AA is getting exactly what it asked for...
Chairman Mao:
Amen to that.
Many pastors have preached against educatiion for years
I think maybe they didnt want the laity to gain knowledge.
They are happy to keep their members ignorant
Van:
Do not engage Enrique. I am glad that he finally came to his senses. If he feels now that he should not invlolve himself with us Praise God!
I never solicit info. from him in the first place. He starts the mess by yelling on the blog and then acts like the victim.
Enrique I apologize if I have offended you, but you did start it. I hope you own up to that. No need to respond since we do not want to use up any more blog space.
God Bless You
WWW
Mao I agree with you
The AA has allowed some very talented individuals go because maybe they wouldnt tow the party line.
They were labeled and dismissed as rebels.
What an easy cop out for the GB
Just shun them as rebels and that justifies everything
its petty their insecurities..
and they tend to be around a measly amount of monies, or porperties, etc..
i manage a 2.5 billion dollar project, for one of the richest most powerful energy companies in the world today...and yet.. my "leader" did not trust my advise on a measly 150K construction project (or at least it was budgeted as so at the time) because he was giving the contract to a buddy who probably kicked some back to him.
My advice to him.. run him off, bid it out to the general market, yes it may cost you 170-190K (because a professional will ask for more, and might just be a realistic budget) and you will have your building in a few months..
5-6 years later, its driven them to near bankruptcy, the building is falling apart and nowhere near done nor quality the hard-working faithfully giving congregation deserves, and the city threatens to shut it down every other week (ja-ja).
but hey, the Man-Of-god got his kick back, and thats all that counts!
the foolish, runs away from council!
plus i wouldnt of listen to me either if i was him, heck I don't run in aisles, scream gibberish, or take every word that comes out of his mouth as the infallible word of God, and worse of all, I have a free and own mind!!! lol
We are seeing the results of a La Puente Bible School education.
David Jimenez for President!
To former AA,
Pastor Andrade was removed mainly for the following reasons:
Brother Andrade wrote "Una Doble Norma" undated, in "apostolic assembly.info" Regarding the violations the GB made in the electoral convention of 06'.
Brother Andrade also wrote "Analisis"(about the CID) dated 4/3/07. Pastor Andrade also wrote" A Double Standard" dated 4/10/07 at the same web page.
Of course these aren't the only reasons why Pastor Andrade was removed. Remember that he is one of the Consentors in the lawsuit case and because of that he is a victim of retaliation from the GB like Brother Abel Torres.
If you notice both Brothers were called on a meeting on the same day,"12/28/07" at 10:00am. Just to be told that they will no longer be Bishop and Pastor.
Now, when was the meeting for Brother Mendoza??? On 01/28/08. Coincidence or retaliation??
Pastor Andrde is diabetic, with heart problems, and needs medical insurance in order to obtain medicine. Pastor Andrade has had two surgical operations on his back. Has served the apostolic assembly in the ministry for 32 years. Just like that the GB COLD hearted has just left him with out a job. A man that's passioned for serving the Lord as a Pastor.
Jesus said in the cross "Father forgive them for they no not wath they do", but in this case; we should say, "Father forgive them for they do know what they do".
God Bless..
alert!
my friend just called me to let me know that pastor willie mendoza is still the pastor at houston for now. the initial plans of the commission were muted because no doubt they found out that the church was behind their pastor.
guess who was smack in the middle of this meeting? frank balboa, guest of the commission (valverde and maffey).
it seems that frank has an ax to grind with pastor willie mendoza as does his elbow rubbing partner, sam valverde.
the commission will return to houston at a later date because they were not prepared to answer some questions that were brought up at the meeting. this speaks of sending "the best of the best".
Told ya the AA is ran like the mafia. It is ran by power-hungry men whose appetite for control compels them to use a spiritual mask in order to get what they ultimately want.
The GB is typified by the the crime bosses and the pastors are typified by the pushers. If the pushers rebel, question or appear to be a threat, they are thrown off a bridge sometimes along with their family members.
The AA is not governed nor patterned after Christ-like values, it is patterned after values you can find on movies like "Scarface" and "The Godfather".
Am I the only one that sees this???!!!!
I guess you have to work closely with the current GB and former GB's in order to actually figure this out.
Can anyone add any clarification to the following?
"they were not prepared to answer some questions that were brought up at the meeting."
What questions were these?
What is the aim of the Aa in this move? (for the congregation, and the pastor)
What exactly is the alleged offense?
Mafia? Come on bro, don't insult the Mafia by comparing the AA to the Mafia.
The Mafia either pushes drugs, acohol, the rackettes, gambling, black market items, and prostitution.
The AA pimps Jesus and uses the threat of hell fire if you do not conform, even to most of its un-biblical standards. How low can one go?
At least there is an "Honor Code" in most Mafia organizations, unlike the AA.
The AA pimps Jesus and gets a Tax Exemption.
On the retaliation of Pastor Andrade for writing the letters. I wonder if the Honorable General Board will go after bro Jauhall for writing the letter "Why no Revival" I can just see Sanchez and Malverde pushing bro Jauhall's wheel chair off some chiff somewhere.
This men have have no heart that you can speak of. They can do this to one their own. Just think what they will do to us.
To Dudeskie:
I'd rather have the Mafia than the current DGB (Dishonorable General Board). At least with the Mafia you know where they stand, with the DGB- everything they do, good or BAD, they do it in the Name of Jesus and hiding behind the pulpit and a Bible.
Van,
I'm very serious. Just look at the comparisons.
COMPARISON 1:
A crime family's goal is to monopolize the drug trade. They advertise as having the best and the purest substances. All other distributors are fake and artificial.
The GB family's goal is to monopolize salvation. They advertise as having the best and purest form of salvation. All others are fake and artificial.
COMPARISON 2:
If you speak against the crime boss, question his actions or appear to be a threat, you are removed from the family.
In the AA, if you speak against, question or appear to be a threat, you are removed from the family and given to the devil.
COMPARISON 3:
In a crime family only one man has ultimate power and authority. At will, he can call the removal of anyone in his business and those underneath him must abide. His entire organizational chart points only to him and none else.
In the AA, absolute power lies in the hands of one man. At will he can call the removal of anyone in the AA without giving explanation or proper documentation. The entire organizational chart points to one man and none else.
I can point out a good half-a-dozen comparisons right now. Anyone else care to add? It's unbelievable how "un-Biblical" the AA is ran. It's all man-centered and not Christ-centered.
Dudeskie: True That.
Vito Corleone for President!
I'd take Tony Soprano.. heck even Johnny Sac over any of these fumbling under-qualified bunch, any day!
Daniel Sanchez looks alot like Fredo Corleone
"I'm smaat!"
Fredo's line to Michael in the the GF II.
Daniel 'I'm smaat' Sanchez.
RE: Mafia comparisons
Here's one for you.
If the pushers do not give their proceeds to the godfather, they are blacklisted and/or taken out.
If pastors do not give their proceeds to the GB they are blacklisted and/or taken out.
The more money a pusher generates, the greater the perks and his protection is guaranteed by the honorable godfather.
The more money a pastor generates, the greater the perks and his protection is secured by the GB.
When a crime family is taken to court, the crime family desroyes all witnesses and whistle blowers as a threat to all those who know anything.
When the GB is taken to court, they remove all witnesses and whistleblowers in hopes that all others who know anything will keep their mouths shut.
Dudeskie, hmmmm youre right. I think I see a pattern.
I think Sanchez and Malverde want to make the theme for the Godfather the offical theme for the AA, and want it played at the the beginning of each service for a reminder that no prisoners will be taken.
Bishop Arellano definitely looks like he would be in the mob.
Clemenza from the Godfather.
I think this comparing the AA to the mob is a little too cliche'.
The AA GB are more like a group of disfunctional retards.
And since we are products of them, that would make us spiritual retards...
Question to all...
Mr. John A. Stillman, is going before Presiding Judge Ben T.
Kayashima Department R12 to file the “Declaratory Brief by Plaintiffs” on Monday February 4, 2008 at 12:00.
On Thursday February 21, 2008 at 12:00 Noon the defense attorney, Mr. Michael P. Acain, will respond to the “Declaratory Brief by Plaintiffs”.
On February 28, 2008 at 12:00 Noon Mr. Stillman, will reply to the defenses’ response.
On Monday March 10, 2008 at 8:30 AM the hearing will take.
Any one of you in the area of Rancho Cucamonga, CA attending these events?
Are these events open to the public or just for the plaintiffs/defendants to appear?
As far as we know, it is open to the public. Anybody from the area going to the hearing? I understand that there are some pastors/ministers up and down Cali that will be going.
Well one thing for sure is that satan will be there in the front row backing up the DGB and the QC.
What a mess!!!!But this may be the best thing for all.
Regarding Willie Mendoza:
Willie Mendoza was a zoot suiter, and yes, he is street smart. He is a qualified woman basher who told the ladies that using hairspay was a sin.
He does have a son named Joe Mendoza, who is a Bishop in Northern California, and is extremely legalist and also a woman basher.
Is he advocating for his elderly father?
All this mafia depiction has long been a part of the forming of these ‘wana be leaders.’ They have been well trained to be what they have become, and they have no spiritual background to be the kind of leaders of churches that would show us a way to heaven.
I can recall the reign of Dan Jauhall, who is of Hindu heritage, Baldemar Rodriguez, Dan Salomon, Ismael and Samuel Arellano, Luciano Montes, Adam Lopez, all well formed machistas and others who have been taught and trained to be mafiosos and women bashers.
These men have been around for
years, yelling and screeching the same old themes that have nothing to do with salvation and justification.
We have sat in the pews, stood up and applauded them as they spewed out their ridiculous tirades against one thing or another which had no bearing on Christ teachings.
And we will still jump up and respond to them when they wind us up with their rantings, indicating to them that we approve this outlandish behavior.
Then we take it a step further by opening up our wallets and say ‘taking what you want.’
A good example is what happens at conventions. Whatever the GB thinks it needs in the way of money, they make the pastors comply, or else.
At the last convention, it was $5,000 per Pastor. Many of the pastors willingly and unwillingly gave up their members hard earned money, and the Pastors did not even consult their church treasurers to see if there was even enough in the church budget to do such a thing.
Yet here we are complaining. What can we do about it? Our hands are tied. Do we push and shove our pastors? Can we demand something of our ‘wanna be leaders’ that they are unable to provide?
I am thinking that the limited education and lack of appropriate experiences of our Pastors render them unable to demand anything of substance from their higher ups.
We have allowed the Pastors to bash us, then they become Board members and everyone flocks to their churches where they bash us some more and then they become the President or Vice President and bash everyone under them.
I know two deacons who congregate in Dan Sanchez church. They run and do anything the President wants. They fetch his water, carry his briefcase and say ‘yes, massa,
These people have been in the churches of previous Board members, also catering to the whims of the ‘Great Leader’.
They are like storm chasers, always wanting to be in the eye of the storm. As soon as the ‘Great Leader’ leaves, they will find another Board Member’s church to continue the same routine.
You would have to think that the storm chasers must know who these leaders are and how can they as believers accommodate to this.
But we do, we cater to this leadership when we are around them, they must hold for us the same destructive fascination as a tornado.
WE HAVE ALLOWED IT AND CONTINUE TO ALLOW IT.
I suggest: Abel Torres for President. Daniel Salomon for Vice President. Brother Fortino for Secretary......
After final decision in court, will Sanchez and Valverde remain in the AA???? Thats if they don't go to JAIL., I dont think so.
to apostolicanalyst...
what is your solution to the present situation of the a.a.?
ju.4all... since you are already suggesting names for positions on the board, who do you suggest from treasurer on down.
any names from the list of petitioners or the consenters?
from my vantage point... there are a lot of men who can transform the Apostolic Assembly from it organizational rut and make it what it was during the Francisco Llorente days... anointed and powerful!
First of all we have to thank the Lord that we have come this far by faith, among this atmosphere of hypocrisy, fraud, abuse and deception.
What we must do is unite in prayer and fasting, rebuke the spirit of hate, ego, arrogance, shunning and self righteousness, legalism..... humble ourselves.
After what we have said about the spiritual aspect of it, then we must:
1.Do away with the CID.
2.Do away with the Calificadora.
3.Hire a legal, certified outside agency that is neutral to run the elections.
4.Have open elections with votes being counted in front of the voters of each corresponding group, i.e. Dorcas, MOP, Varones, when the elections are taking place.
5.All persons running for a position need to have demonstrated that they have a right to do so because they have proven themselves at the District and Church levels.
6.Acting Bishops and Previous Bishops can be the only ones who can run for the General Board as well as all secretarial committees that are part of the GB.
a. That they have done good things as Bishops, to be of good testimony.
b. That a background prior to their salvation experience not come back to hinder them or the Board.
c. Que no sean ganadores de torpes ganancias.
d. Pastors running for Bishop must also have an open election run by a certified outside agency.
e. Dorcas, Varones, Messengers of Peace who have successfully been District Presidents, Secretary or Treasurer are the only ones who can run at a national level.
f. District Officers must have been a successful Church Officers, ‘y tampoco ganadores de torpes ganancias.’
g. That all voting verification is available to the membership and documented proof, including the minutes of meetings are professionally kept at church, district and General Board levels. This includes all active officials.
7.That the treasury report be maintained in the details required by any accounting firm.
a. That it be available for audit.
b. That a budget be developed, approved and maintained.
We do have good structure in our Constitution, but the addition of the CID and the Calificadora opened the door to fraud and deception. That is the first thing that has to go.
Some other areas of the Constitution need to be reconsidered to also close doors to abuse.
Above all, find men for the General Board who have earned the right to be elected under the complete legal definition of the outlined terms.
No member of the Board can be on the Board more than 16 years.
In conclusion, it all starts from the local church. The Pastor gives the information as to who in the 3 groups has proven themselves to have a right to run for election at District level of the Dorcas, Varones, MOPs.
Two years later, the Bishop sends the information of the names of those who have the right to run at a national level.
The same goes with the Bishops. They have successfully proven themselves able to run for GB and Secretarial Committees that form the full Board.
Dear Brothers and Sisters. It is easily done.
But you have a whole bunch of shysters who will not allow this to take place.
Who I want for General Board would be:
President: Bishop Abel Torres
Vice Pres: Bishop Julian Aguirre
Secretary: Bishop Frank Romo
Treasurer: Bishop Arcadio Pena
All these men have deep rooted Apostolic foundation. Their parents have been founders of the Assembly.
Bro. Aguirre's father was founder and pastor of many of the Northern California Apostolic churches. He lived past 90 years and served the Lord faithfully for those many years.
We all know about Bro. Torres parents and their work in West Texas, his mother still is active in church work.
Bro. Romo has worked faithfully at First Church of Phoenix, he is very friendly, has a good repoire with the Assembly members.
Bro. Pena third generation Apostolic. His grandfather, church planter in the Rio Grande Valley, Texas, and his father, Arcadio, Sr. who is 90 years old, was co-worker and counselor to many of the younger Pastors in the Rio Grande Valley.
All these Bishops have been well qualified and well taught by their parents to Love the Lord and to serve the people of the AA.
All of these Bishops have proven to do outstanding work as Bishops and in church growth in their Districts, and in their own churches.
The other Committee members:
Sec. of Foreign Missions:
Bishop Joe Prado
(Was missionary in Chile. 3rd generation Apostolic)
Sec. of National Missions:
Bishop Robert Chavarria
(Pastor of church in Colorado, third generation Apostolic.)
Sec. of Christian Education:
Bishop Juan Fortino
(Pastor of church in Florida. Was Sec. of Missions, 2nd generation Apostolic)
Sec. of Social Assistance
Bishop Joe Rodriguez, Jr.
(Pastor in San Jose, CA. 3rd generation Apostolic)
These men have all been Bishops and are highly experienced.
They are not legalist or woman bashers. They are not snobs.
They preach the Word, they do their jobs and they are successful as Pastors and Leaders.
Apostolicanalyst:
I like what you say in part, but do not agree in part with regard to having the Retreads on the board because of the "Deep" Apostolic Roots.
In that plan, we are doing nothing but promoting the offspring flunkies of generations past.
What? No qualified people have been saved in the last 20 years? No joven was saved say 10 years ago and now has an education, experience and a ministry?
What about promoting women? Why can't we have an inclusive general board?
In promoting Relics of Yesteryear, in my opinion, only serves to keep us in the same limited place we are.
Apostolicanalyst,
You have to be kidding. Place more 3rd/4th generation apos because they are deeply rooted in the AA???
Ummmm, no!
I don't doubt these are good men. I know each one of them personally (except for Fortino). But part of the problem of this organization is due to an overdoze of old-school AA influence. I think the AA is governed more by the spirit of Nava rather than the spirit of God. The AA is clueless about what God is doing these days because of their obsession to keep doing what they've always been doing.
The AA needs people on the board with new and fresh ideas who are not heavily influenced by how it used to be done, but by how it needs to be done. 3rd/4th gen apos (although good men) are heavily influenced and pressured into doing what has always been done.
Let's get some new men/woman on the board who are not as interested in the preservation of the AA as they are about the preservation of Christianity. More than likely, this will require 1st gen apos.
To Van and Dudeskie:
I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.
Believe me, I would want to see a young, bright, educated General Board, but it is somewhat unrealistic to think that can happen right now. Our problems are too deep seated.
The only reason I suggest these men is because they have endured and survived Nava, Baldemar, Jauhall, Salomon, Sanchez, who people on the blog have suggested returning to the Board.
Have you not seen Baldemar and Salomon’s names keep coming up as suggested new GB members? They desperately want back on the Board (after being there 20+ years already) or they would not be suing.
The men I suggested have endured and have shown some integrity.
So it starts with small steps.
A radical change will not take place. I just hope that men like these can help in the transition and investment into new leadership.
You need more than one or two 1st generation men who will be able to survive the pressure and punishment from the many, deeply entrenched old-time leaders.
Believe me, they will not give up their dominance without a fight. Our new people may run for the hills (and with good reason), when pressure from the ‘good ole boys’ is brought to bear.
My hope would be that those whom I suggested, might have the ability to encourage young, educated leadership, invest in those who are working on an education, and from there, move our young people into the 21st century, not into the ‘prosperity doctrine, and emotional follower, but into the true evolved and developed, confident, successful believer.
Do you have any ideas as to how we can make the transition? I believe we are clear on what we want, but we need a long term plan on how to do it.
The only way realistically have significant change in the amable asamblea would be to adopt a Dresden/Hiroshima Doctrine.
Completely destroy the current infrastructure and reconstruct something completely new.
Even if the petitioners win this battle, all that will happen is we will see the same old recycled junk.
In my opinion, the AA is like the Titanic. It has hit the ice berg and is taking in water fast....
Time to abandon ship....
2008 is destined and designed to be the year of the Expectation, Desire, Goals, and Excitement!
There are 3 elements that are integral to the DNA of DESTINY: Partnership= Connection; Purpose= Consistency; Productivity= Consecration!
DESTINY requires that you not live for your future, but from your future. This is commonly referred to as "starting with the end in mind." In this season, God is taking us, "BACK TO THE FUTURE". Instead of going from revelation to release, we're going from release to revelation.
Apostolicanalyst,
Wow, very good point. You're right, a "radical" change in the AA is not a realistic possibility. I can see how the men you suggested are better aligned with the possibility of change (at least)in the very far future. Personally though, I still wouldn't bet my farm on it. They're good men, but the CLOUD of tradition has too tight of grasp that just won't allow for atleast an ounce of change. Like you stated, "My hope would be...", we can only hope. In fear of sounding negative, based on the AA history, that's as much as anyone gets - hopeful.
Your last post alone should be read and memorized by the GB because it makes perfect sense. However, sense is a rare commodity in our higher levels of leadership.
Dudeskie:
Well, at least you have a glimmer of hope, but I agree, common sense in a rare commodity in the AA.
Van...
Unlike you, I am not totally ready to give up on the AA. First of all, it is Gods work and He is the ultimate one in control. We just need to allow Him to work through us...
Valverde, Pacheco Aguilar and Espinoza have never been bishops.
They have not paid their dues. Their lack of experience, commitment and understanding of ecclesial matters shows in all they attempt to do.
So that would be my first point.
The Board needs men who have had experience in the ministry. Who have ‘sudado la gota gorda....”
Who know what it is to give to and do for the flock. Granted, it won’t make them perfect, but at least, they understand ‘investment.’
Go through the directory of the Assembly and try to find one 1st generation person who has been a Bishop and Pastor or an Elder. There are none.
If we put 1st generation men into office, they would not have an ounce of experience and would be at the mercy of the predator like tactics of Baldemar, Sanchez, and all the old gang.
Martin del Campo is 1st generation and on the GB. He was picked over the top of other Pastors who had paid their dues. We know of no history where he has been a Bishop. He somehow talked Sanchez into getting him on the Board, and I suppose he is Sanchez' idea of new blood.
Now, he has brought strife between Pastors, churches and even the U.S. and Mexican Assemblies. He has tried to force changes that the AA is not ready for. He brings in new concepts like the G12, Re-encuentros, etc. But look at the disaster that he has made. Seems like no one likes him except Sanchez.
Bottom line... we have to know that changes WILL NOT happen overnight. But by hand picking from the few men that we have who are somewhat above reproach, we can begin and HOLD THEM accountable.
BUT.....
OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR BOARD MUST CHANGE.....
PLEASE, let’s not dote on them, spoil them and treat them like gods when they walk into Conventions.
Let’s all keep the proper perspective on the fact that they are just men, and men with great flaws, but we trust that they can and will do right by us.
Let’s do like the Presbyterians who keep everyone salaried, and no one can live expansive and outrageous lifestyles on the backs of their flocks, maybe that will bring only those who really want to do God’s work.
So back to my list... These have not been on the General Board and have not been involved in election fraud. Still, they are experienced. They have paid the price. They have been among us and we know them. They probably have their flaws but they would not do anyone dirty.
ApoAnalyst:
Even so, it's still be a Talibanistic organization with its funky doctrines and wierd ideas. Not to mention the women hating.
Hiroshamize the AA
What???? Sanchez tried to introduce the G12 concept into the AA? Please say it isn't so!
It's almost as if the GB sit in their conference rooms and try to find new ways to look more and more like a cult. Too many people in leadership with "AMWAY" mentalities.
I am truly disappointed, my blood pressure is going up.
Whats G12?
Amway?
Van,
Let me put it to you this way. G12 is the Christian version of AMWAY. In AMWAY, a small number of people actually become successful and rich, those are usually the good talkers, the ones who never know when to be quiet, the ones that will talk your ear off to the point that you're willing pay anything and sign anything to get them to shut their mouths. The good ones have an enormous number of people underneath them and their success is measured by these numbers. Forget quality, quantity is what gets you the big check and position.
G12 follows the same concept. It is a very very tempting concept especially with Latinos because of the numbers that it generates. And the bigger the numbers, the bigger the salary. It almost completely abandons quality over quantity.
To apostolicanalyst…
You mention in your blog that the reason why the plaintiffs are suing is because they want to get to the GB. In reading the posts found on www.apostolicassembly.info, three of the plaintiffs have documents posted there.
In reading all of Baldemar Rodriguez’s letters to the GB there is not one shred of evidence that he is suing simply because he wants to get back in. He simply got involved at the request of various bishops back then including Art Tafoya and Juan Hernandez among others. He served his time on the GB and realizes that it is someone else’s time to lead the AA. He would be considered like an elder statesmen, similar to President George H. Bush aka “41”. There is even one post on info that eulogizes him for the past and the present. Never does this writer eulogize Baldemar Rodriguez referencing the future because even this writer knows that his time has come and gone.
Although you suggest that Abel Torres would be a good President of which I have no doubt he would be, read his two documents to Daniel Sanchez and you can tell that this man is so confident in himself that whether he has a position or does not, that does not define who he is. You can tell just by reading his documents that his roots of humbleness just flow out of him. His letter to Daniel Sanchez chronicles a very significant ministerial course, which he inherited from his father and continues to make progress there in Midland.
A third plaintiff, whose letter is also on info, is Saul Avila. Read his response letter to “WWJS” and there is nothing there about him suing because he wants into the GB. Furthermore, he has not been a bishop and probably will never be but you get the sense in reading his reply that he is a student of Scripture. From what I have heard about him is that he helped in his district in Texas as sector elder and then became the district secretary. He has been pastoring there in Texas for a few years.
The fourth plaintiff has not written anything to be able to gauge if he wants to get back into the GB is Daniel Salomon. As you well know, he was on the GB for 12 consecutive years. Two terms as Social Assistance and one as Secretary, then he was then booted out. It was him and Juan Fortino that were moved out to make room for the present ones even though according to Abel Torres, these two men got overwhelming majority of the votes.
In conclusion, there is no evidence to prove your assumption as valid. I have heard that the reason why these four men are suing is because they are bitter towards the AA. Read their documents or talk to them personally and see/hear if that is true. The Word says: “… from the abundance of the heart speaketh the mouth…” I don’t pick up bitterness from any of the three plaintiffs who have written. The “lone ranger” is Daniel Salomon because we have nothing to find out where he is at other than hear say.
Fair to say though, these four men are suing the AA because they are convinced that having exhausted all their resources “in house”, the only remedy was intervention from the outside. We will wait and see...
Van:
I don't disagree with your diagnosis of a Taliban mentality.
I struggle with the sense of hopelessness that things can change.
But, let me lay some ideas on you.
1. We, as members encourage our leaders to this thinking through our submitting to their cult demands.
2. We don't decide for ourselves as to what Scripture says. We rather hear idiotic ramblings from our leadership.
3. We have made our denomination a social setting, heavily dosed with emotional events, rather than developing the true nature of a Church as the Bride of Christ, working toward being spotless and looking only to Him as our example.
4. We have allowed money and the prosperity doctrine to be our guide, rather than strive for excellence and success being the bi-product.
I can continue, but I think you can see that it is not only our leaders who are off track.
It is a struggle to have to hear these men yell gibberish from the pulpit, and have to pay $$ to do so.
I bide my time, I know that there are many younger people out there who feel the same, and if by chance a change should happen fairly soon, those who have left to other churches just might return and they bring with them good ideas, solid doctrine and organizational skills.
What think?
ApoAnalyst:
I think you are 100% Correct.
But the current AA, with its current leadership, its funky doctrine, is like a cancer that even Chemo cannot cure. Its too late.
We could play the game, but why? As a member, I have no say.
There are those that are motivated because they take a share of the pie. I don't get a cut, its not my concern. In the end, what benefit is it to the membership?
If members dare to speak up, we are labeled as criticones.
The AA is an organzation that thrives on the ignorance of its membership.
Look at the convention as a sample. Most are un-educated simpletons. And those that are supposedly educated, are Awesome in an Awesome way because they attended an Awesome convention and had an Awesome Time and can't wait for the next Awesome convention.
The A.A will not change its ways on its own. It is ripe for a split, that actually will be the only way one part will be able to mmove forward and become relevant in the times we are living in. speak english and you are not mexican, sing new songs and you are not annointed because it is not in the himnario. History shows that in organizations like the A.A there is ultimately a split because there are always a group who will rise to question those who consider themselves those chosen to lord over the people.
a concerned minister
To all:
I would like to know who the pastor is that wrote "Letter from God" in the apostolicassembly.info. Anybody know? He should be in the GB!
To Why?
I think that you are not seeing the forest for the trees. You must have read previous blogs where many people know that Baldemar was into election fraud and other dirty tactics since he first got on the Board and ruled it for 23 years.
In an election that was held in Anaheim, Baldemar was re elected as President with less than a third of the vote of 500 pastors. David Contreras and Abel Jimenez from Ontario were part of that Calificadora and also Baldemar’s buddies, and “guarda espaldas’.
They made sure that he was elected as President..Vice President ...President....Vice President, for 23 years.
So many good men were totally ignored for positions on the General Board, and no one spoke up for them. Also, into the election fraud were Ismael Arrellano, Isacc Cota , Daniel Jauhall, Dan Salomon, Ben Quiroz, I can go on.
Bro. Philip Rangel who is now gone to be with the Lord, was brutally disqualified in one of those fraudulent elections and the position was given to Ben Quiroz.
Another one was Robert Ramirez who has also gone to be with the Lord, lost the election to be President also by fraud, and Baldemar was once again given the Presidency.
This went on for years and years, disqualifying good men, and qualifying those who were not. Baldemar was the ring leader of the whole fraudulent elections.
No one said anything about fraudulent elections until Bro. Abel Torres had the courage and valor to blow the whistle when Sanchez asked him to be on the Qualifying Committee and he saw first hand what was going on.
If you read the Historical Perspective on one of the blogs, you will know who AC Nava was, and how he controlled and manipulated the Board and controlled the subsequent Presidents until he was neutralized by that car accident he had and had to leave L.A. and move to Union City. He lost control of the Board (no matter who was President, Nava ruled the roost). Baldemar took over and began his own reign of strong armed tactics.
No one can say that the intentions of Baldemar and Salomon in this lawsuit are noble. Get real! They are has beens and will not take it lying down. Common sense would dictate that if you have dirty hands, you wouldn’t stir up this mud.
Therefore, the thinking behind this has to be that no matter, if the Assembly goes down, they will be able to say, ‘see it went down because we were not in control.’ They would rather it go down and lose the non profit status, than for it to continue, albeit, limping along without them.
If you say that you read no bitterness in those letters, you need to remember that the General Board referred to Baldemar as “Pastor” rather than Ex President, and he fired off a letter to them and then jumped into the lawsuit like a roaring bull, joining his political enemy.
Listen, none of those Plantiffs who have been on the GB have clean hands. Including Dan Salomon who is playing possum.
So what right do they have to be suing?
Very well written Apostolicanalyst. I couldn't have said it better myself. In the beginning of this fiasco, I always questioned Baldemar's reason for suing. I can see Brother Abel, but Baldemar? He was part of the same hypocricy for years on end during his dictatorship. And now, he's had an awakening moment all of a sudden and now, will not stand for the same fraud that he was a part of for many years, when someone else is doing it to him? I'm in no way taking the DGB's side on this, but it must be hard for Baldemar to take this, as he his now being measured with the same stick he measured others before and has been given a healthy dose of his own medicine.
Our Leaders have a history of Election Fraud, Manipulation, Thievery, Machismoism.
Has any of them done anything good or ethical?
Talk about a lack of credibility. How can you preach against adultery or fornication when you just left the Brothel?
Our Leaders have no right to stand behind the pulpits and proclaim to be our "Spiritual Leaders".
An organization based on the fruits of un-ethical behavior cannot stand.
These people have no concious.
RE: ISHMAEL ARELLANO
Along the same lines as to what Apostolicanalys was saying. The board never really cared about the character of their members.
I read an article about Heith Ledger, an actor who just recently passed away. This is what it said:
"Heith adored his daughter, Matilda, and when Michelle called it quits he missed Matilda so much that he was thrown into a deep, dark depression.
He blamed himself for Matilda not having her dad around all the time."
Hmmmmm... what did Ishmael Arellano do when he remarried after having a child with another woman? He bought himself a Cadillac to prove to his boss that he too can drive a Cadillac. Nope, no depression there.
Can't believe a drug addicted actor who starred in a controversial homosexual film had more heart and sole than one of our board members.
Can you see why we're in the situation that we're in?
Britney Spears for Dorcas prez! Might as well.
On a different note, can anyone please help me with finding this scripture- I can't seem to find it and I need it for something important not related to this matter. Losely translated . . . en lo poquo has sido fiel, en lo mucho te pondre. . .
Thanks!
Lucas 19:17
Thank You! Can I take advantage and ask for one more thing- are there any verses that speak of the foolish not taking advice?
Colorado . . .
Why would anyone want Britney Spears for Dorcas Prez? We already have Bishop Sanchez (BS) as Prez of the AA. I think we've already taken more BS than we can handle.
Vday,
Bishop Sanchez = BS
Good one! You're right, enough with the BS!
It's sad to see that corruption doesn't reserve itself to just corporate America, but it makes itself available even to those with spiritual gloves.
Cece:
2 Chronicles 10:8 talks about when Rehoboam rejected the advice of the elders....
Proverbs has a lot:
11:14 For lack of guidance (advice) a nations falls, but many advisers make victory sure.
12:15 The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advise.
19:20 Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. (I guess not taking advice makes you dumb!)
Remember, that the advise you take is GOOD advice, not from someone who wants to hear him/herself talk, but from someone who is a Godly example and has your best interest at heart.
This is where discernment comes in.
Cece:
Another thought just occurred to me. The word COUNSEL...
Proverbs (again) 15:22 Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers, they succeed.
Go to the official AA website, they have a link to Bible Commentaries and a place you can put in a key word and it will bring up EVERY verse in the Bible with that word it in.
Cece,
You should use biblegateway.com to look up topical themes in the Bible.
It's easier than posting here and waiting for an answer.
Quote from Apostolic Voice: "Since Brother Torres was accepted as Bishop during the district election, and there was no impropriety on his part during his administration and reason for removal, we are asking that Brother Torres be re-instated as Bishop of his respective district.
He was granted clearance by the local pastors of his district, he was granted clearance by the election committee and General Board. And he did nothing during his administration to remove said clearance up until the time he was stripped of his position and until present.
The local pastors and leaders again called upon his reinstatement the same day by their actions in re voting and calling upon him to be their Bishop. This should be taken as a vote of confidence on his behalf."
His voice fell on deaf ears as the GB is convening the pastors from the Northwest TX for a special election of their new bishop for Sat. 2/16/08. Just wondering if the pastors will show up for this event.
Apostolic Voice, "How bout them GB members?"
why? very interesting development. i recently heard that they cited the pastors from that district for a meeting with a gb member present and that only one pastor showed up. can someone from that district verify this information?
As the drudge report says: "Developing..."
Actually 2 were present.
Way before Feb. 16th, the GB will have their hands full. The election will never take place. Possible fireworks next week.
Remember next Monday the plaintiffs lawyer will introduced all their evidence in court. What a day.
apostolic_insider, "Actually 2 were present." two what, pastors or gb members? do you know who they were?
I am sorry it was not 2 pastor's it was three. The only reason two out of the three went is because two of the Pastor's that went live in the town where the activity was being held.
Seems like the Board keeps going down to Texas to make a kill, (remove a Pastor) but we don’t really know who the prey (Pastor) is.
What was the intent of moving Artie Espinoza to Texas from Northern California last year?
Which of the Pastors in North Texas were they going to remove in order to give him a church?
It would have to be someone with a good church, after all, Artie is Sanchez brother in law, and nothing but the best for the family.
Although the Board has been pushing and shoving Willie Mendoza from Houston Texas, they have encountered resistance they had not anticipated.
Two Board members were summoned to Texas by Frank Balboa to remove Mendoza as Pastor because Frank is very bitter when Willie did not assign him as Assistant Pastor.
So in retaliation, he informs Sanchez about anything negative that is going on in the Houston Church that Mendoza pastors.
Sanchez snaps up all this info because he needs to place Artie Espinoza in a church in Texas, but is having trouble because no one is budging.
So does this involve Artie or are they trying to give the Houston church to Balboa?
Is the church up for grabs, or is the Board finding resistance from its Pastors finally?
I heard that Willie had his attorneys standing ready to defend him against the Board.
So he send Valverde and Maffey running back to Sanchez, unable to accomplish the hit.
Is this age discrimination?
Is this about Mendoza being single?
(Willie, who is 85 just married a 42 year old woman)
Is this about what Frank is saying about the Church?
Is this about Artie needing a church?
If the Board is looking for problems with churches, why not go after Joel Montes, whose church property is in his name and not in the name of the Assembly according to the information on letters@apostolicassembly.info.
Why is the Board so strict and legalist with some Pastors and yet let others who are really doing things that are not right according to the Constitution, keep right on going?
some one knows what day is going to be the court and what time and WHERE IS GOING TO BE
Suggestion: Send Espinoza to the bigggest church in West Texas, room for over 1,000 souls only 1 problem he will have to actually go out and win them... Heck send anyone who actually cares for souls ... Problem is those persons are not connected and im pretty sure they are already doing Gods work anyways. Obviously what a tremendous growth we would experience if we had people as pastors who actually cared. Dont misunderstand me I know there are great men of God out there like Bishop Torres its just so sad that some have stained and blemished this Great work..
Are there any other m,essage boards covering this or similiar suvject matter?
Does anyone have a url?
I understand the Judge and the defendants' attorneys will receive the detailed documents today before noon PST. Shortly after that, the defendants's attorneys are expected to bail out due to the seriousness of the case.
Is anyone planning to be there? I can't seem to find the case on the court calendar. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.
To Apostolic Insider_ what documents?
To V-day: the next court hearing is on 3/10- the one for 2/7 has been continued-- meaning, rescheduled.
I'm just wondering why the court system still shows the def's as being unrepresented.
Has ANYONE seen a copy of the AMENDED COMPLAINT??? I'm surprised apostolicletters hasn't posted yet. It could very interesting.
There won't be a court appearance today. They'll get it by mail or courier service. The first court day before the judge is on March 10th. I doesn't look like it will go that far. Things will fall apart for the defendants way before that.
The day of reckoning may be as early as the end of this week.
Insider..
what's going on, what makes you think as you do?
Anything we don't know about?
And does anyone know why not a single new document has been published ont he "etters" web-site?
I'd guess the AA lawyer told them to smarten up and quit plublishing documents. especialy since what they have published is full of opinion, heresay, and seem to be contrary to their own by-laws... lol.
those letters are a god-send for the plaintiffs, any smart lawyer will be able to tear them apart, plus, if they get any further acces via "discoverY" i'd hate to see what else is would be uncovered.
The defendants' attorneys will make the GB aware of the overwhelming possbility that they will lose and the grave consequences that would result. They will also inform the GB that the only possible way out is to negotiate. The only problem with that is that it may be too late to negotiate. The plaintiffs may not be willing to negotiate anymore.
The D A is already looking into this case for possible FRAUD.
on "grave consequences"
what is it the plaintiffs are requesting? if its merely a recount or a 2nd election, then the court is tied up to decide on those two. I don't see either one as "grave". but again this all goes back to how good the plaintiffs lawyer is. if he's worth his salt, he will ask for much more, imean alot more than what they are willing to settle for, it would be about positioning oneself to have the upper hand in an out-of-court settlement.
but this is my limited opinion, since I am not privy to the demands of the plaintiffs, but if they are smart, they asked for the entire farm.
and again, it would be a big mistake in the part of the plaintiffs to remove out of court settlements off the table. this is a secular court, and the possibility the court decides against you is always there. it would be a tragic and strategic mistake to limit your avenues of settlement at this point.
that said, via discovery, i would take down, or at least threaten to take down as many people, and to broaden the scope of discover as wide as possible. i'm talking about emmbezzlement, fraud, racketeriing, neptopism, what have you, to be placed before the court. although the court will not decide on these issues, the threat would be that these issues be aired in a public forum, for everyone to see. and under the threat of perjury, the defendents would have to be as honest as possible. and since this is a civil case, and not criminal, i don't think they would be able to take the 5th (although i mite be mistaken).
again, go after the Farm, although your are more than happy and willing to settle for the hen house!! lol
The damage done by the GB began before the elections. They have piled on mistake after mistake since then. They are so deep in trouble now that not even deep sea divers can save them.
Why are flashes of a fan and feces going through my head?
...it almost feels prophetic.
to apostolic insider_
maybe I missed something but what documents are you referring to that the judge is to receive by noon today?
Do you know who is representing the defs? According to the site- they are unrepresented.
They are represented temporarily until the attorneys realize its fraud. At that time, they will tell them, "Negotiate or see you later."
Chairman Mao
http://thetruthatlast-justice.blogspot.com/
Can you all pray for dear ol' Van. I've been suffering from Chorro for the past 2 days. I'm drained and confused.
I wanted to go to the altar yesterday, but was too affraid to bend on my knees fearing all hell would break lose.
If I was the attorney representing the defendants, the very first thing that I would do after they are sworn in, would be to ask the Plantiffs,
“Have any of you ever been active members of this Board in the past?”
If the answer is yes...
“Have any of you participated in an election where you were a member of the Qualifying Committee during the time that you were being elected?”
If the answer is yes....
‘It appears to me that there is a smoking gun that indicates you all have committed fraudulent elections also and you have dirty hands.”
If they plead the fifth, so as not to be incriminated themselves, I would bring home the fact that they are suing someone for the fraud that they initiated.
But brothers and sisters of the Apostolic Assembly, no one seems to get this. You are pitching from the mound to second base instead of to the plate.
To Apostolicanalyst,
True, there is such a thing as a ‘pot’ calling the ‘kettle’ black. Whether the pot or a snowman refers to the kettle as black, the kettle is still black.
The actions of the HGB are reprehensible. From the fraudulent election to removing God fearing Pastors because they dare speak against the fraud that took place. It doesn’t matter who brings it to light, it is still wrong.
02/04/2008 P&A/DECLARATIONS (4) RECEIVED AND FORWARDED TO LEGAL RESEARCH FOR HRG. ON 3/10/08 Not Applicable
02/04/2008 DECLARATION OF DANIEL SALOMON FILED Not Applicable
02/04/2008 DECLARATION OF ABEL TORRES FILED Not Applicable
02/04/2008 DECLARATION OF ARTHUR TAFOYA FILED Not Applicable
02/04/2008 DECLARATION OF JOHN A STILLMAN FILED Not Applicable
02/04/2008 P&A IN SUPPORT OF SETTING ASIDE THE ELECTION DATED NOVEMBER 24, 2006 AND ORDERING A NEW ELECTION FILED Not Applicable
the devils work hath surely not prevailed for your lawsuit hath seen the bottom of the trash can of the court you saught to seek a great division. Gods devine will hath surely been with the keepers appointed to care the storehouse. Laughter from heaven is raining upon the workers of inquinity in the church. your effort from hell hath failed.
john 3:16
Huh?
in defeat of the rebellious false accusers of the guardians of the blessed storehouse the heavens are singing melodies of laughter from heaven for surely the gates of heavenly water hath put out your fire. the fire that came from hell hath surely been washed away and purified by a great and mighty cleansing that cleaned away the filth of the church.
victory is in the hands of gods chosen and annointed general board and blessings from heaven shall surely rain upon the victory and all snakes of the petition shall be cooked in a great and mighty fire and shall be eaten by the guardians of the storehouse. the blessed shall use the skins gained from the snakes to cover their shoes and the meat of the snakes be used as food for the snakes have been surely defeated in this great and mighty battle. the lord hath spoken you this day a great and mighty word.
John 3:16
You should change your moniker to 1Kings 22:22
wa su mara con juan 3:16...
bebio mucho "four bucks" starbucks o que?
for surely the great mother of all lawsuits against the father and his chosen hath failed with a great and mighty defeat at the hands of defeat and now they petition for mercy after the great and mighty defeat. the victors of the storehouse shall now pillage your fruit and take your gain as the spoils of your defeat and ye shall none again raise up and challenge the supremecy of the father through his divinely appointed keepers of the storehouse because your efforts are only worthy of the great and mighty pitts of hell not to be quenched is your thirst for lust of power and you brought up against but were greated with a great and mighty defeat where the heavens opened up and showered you in laughter from heaven. this word hath surely been spoked to you this day.
hey ese juan 3:16...
pasa lo que estas tomando o chupando
John 3:16
Not very well 'spoked'.
Are you trying to say something about the lawsuit?
You sound like you might be related to two vote Eddie.
To paraphrase an old saying 'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with Bishop Sanchez'
ese juan 3:16 en donde en la Biblia esta lo que tu dices "annointed general board"
I think John 3:16 is Malverde or maybe Sanchez, or the whole anionted Dishonorable General Board might be John 3:16
carnales como soy nuevo en esta honda ese juan 3:16 siempre ha escrito asi?
apparently Pacheco's son-in-law and his daughter have left his church to go to TD Jakes organization- I hear he's a pastor now. Can anyone confirm?
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